I am temporarily stepping away from my current blog-series “Untapped Worlds” to write about a well-known touchy, deservedly sensitive subject. I think it is a very important subject and I want to present a variation of it to my male audience.
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The Aston Martin Rapide
Imagine for a minute Sir, you are at home — your home that you have constructed or refurbished or added-on by your hard-earned money — enjoying your comfortable couch or recliner in front of your 110-inch flat-panel HDTV with stereo surround-sound. In back…your quality-landscaped swimming pool and backyard with multi-level BBQ grill and pit. Behind there, your very own workshop/garage complete with a mechanic’s and carpenter’s dream inventory of high-end tools. Inside the three-door garage/workshop, your very own Bugatti Veyron or Aston Martin.
Up in your bedroom closet, complete sets of high-end business suits, a tuxedo for annual charity balls, 3 or 4 sets of the best men’s dress and casual shoes that money can buy, dress-ties and so on. Obviously, this type of living, home, and possessions are indicative of your wealthy salary: $200k – $500k per year or more? If I’ve forgotten any other lavishing items, please add them to your imaginative picture for a minute.
Then you hear some laughing outside in the back. A big splash soon follows. Then smoke slowly moves across your 8-windowed back living room wall that offers a spectacular vista into your luscious oasis around the pool and 1-acre lawn — the smoke is coming from your BBQ pit. No one is home but you; your fabulous wife of 17-years is out for the day with your 3 children! You quickly walk out the backdoor to find complete strangers using and obviously enjoying all your backyard amenities. How would feel? How would you react?
Or what about another scenario. Imagine for a minute you have been out to a nice upscale 5-star restaurant with valet parking. After 2-3 hours of superb cuisine you and your wife decide to leave, walk out to the valet-station to have your Aston Martin brought up, and the Supervisor tells you and your wife, you must wait…wait for 10-15 minutes because four other valets just HAD to take your phenomenal wheels out for a spin themselves. How would you feel? How would you react?
Here’s another scenario. Imagine for a minute you’ve allowed some of your college frat buddies to come over to your palatial home to hangout, drink, and watch a game against your bitter college rivals. A few hours later you notice one of the guys is wearing one of your expensive dress shirts as well as some of your expensive jewelry and watch! Another buddy has found your basement wine cellar and popped-open one of your vintage bottles of wine, or best MacAllan scotch, and neither were upstairs on the kitchen counter with the cooler of beer! How would you feel? How would you react?
Men, I could come up with many more scenarios with your workshop tools, or even precious family heirlooms, or irreplaceable photos, but I hope you’re getting the idea.
What It Feels Like?
The above scenarios I have just described are pretty much how it feels to a woman when she is inappropriately spoken to, inappropriately touched or “grazed,” or sexually harassed by a man lacking proper gentleman’s etiquette, let alone ignoring common above-average respect for a woman. It is uninvited. Period. Some of the time the circumstances MIGHT be grey, vague, or appear grey/vague to YOU, but if there’s any level of uncertainty, what is your best course of action preserving her dignity? Are you aware of your own, how it appears?
When I’ve talked about these types of awkward or inappropriate situations, “violated” is one word I’ve heard women describe most to me. There is very little difference (if any at all) in their feelings of insult than what WE MEN might feel about our “precious stuff” at home or at our jobs. Get the picture?
I bring this subject up because I’ve encountered many men (particularly in the U.S. south) who implicitly or explicitly view and speak of their girlfriend/spouse or women in general as property they’ve “bought” or trying to buy, and subsequently own the Title-Deed. Sadly, to continue the analogy, this behaviour and thinking is WORSE when a woman’s “Title-Deed” is available or unpurchased, on-the-market; i.e. unmarried.
Men, this mentality must change! In all its forms and subtleties, the barbarism must stop.
And for you/us chivalrous gentlemen out there, WE must have consistent courage to firmly, tactfully, and in prompt dignifying ways step-in when a woman’s dignity is being grossly disrespected. Otherwise, by sitting idly by you perpetuate the problem for future women…possibly for your own daughter(s) and grand-daughters.
Post-script — I welcome any suggestions or further comments/additions to this post from my female readers. Please feel free to share them with us.
Addendum — the comments below will show that my approach to this subject could’ve been better, but for the sake of the topic — from my subjective perspective — and honesty, I believe I am going to leave my original content alone and allow the discussions below to help out. I hope it is constructive.
Live Well — Laugh Often — Love Much — Learn Always
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The Professor's Convatorium 
Gee. Thanks for adding the women on as a post-script. Most appreciated.
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Grrrrrr…you are tough Madame; a very tough audience.
However, this was mostly directed to the male mentality, probably the insenstive, unrefined Alpha-male mentality. How did I do…or how could you add to my feeble attempt? 😉
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I’ve mulled over my post-script and my entire post as well. Ugh, I’m not sure I’ve done an adequate service for men, probably not women either. 😦
Thinking of dropping the post-script. I was truly attempting to speak a familiar male language I’ve often encountered — primarily to and for men. I don’t think I’ve done well enough for the women’s POV though. Help?
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Hi Professor. Here’s an attempt at an explanation. Please ask if you don’t understand anything.
It seems slightly odd, to talk about purchasing the title deed in terms of a relationship with women and say they are NOT a possession, and then to use your main argument against treating an oppressed species in this way by comparing us to an Aston Martin (nice) or a bottle of single malt. Which are … expensive possessions.
In itself, that perpetuates the concept that a woman is a possession not a person, and that they are something that costs money. Some of us are actually household contributors.
All people deserve dignity. Women deserve it no more or no less than children, old people, homeless people, starving people etc. It sounds like this ghastly southern ideal of cherishing and worshipping women which is anathema to feminism. You deserve dignity too. No more or no less than me. It’s not gender specific.
The postscript. Hmm. It did sound like ‘this is a chat for the boys but if a little woman wants to pop in with her pointless perspective, it will be tolerated (and ignored)’. And I know you didn’t mean it like that.
I do acknowledge that you are raising a difficult issue, especially from a male perspective in the deep south (I scrubbed out backwoods). And that’s good. It’s just that, a white, hetero male isn’t usually the subject of discrimination to the extent that women are. Throwaway comments, jokes, assumptions. It happens all the time to us.
I’m not even talking about trying to pick women up for sex. It’s way more than that. So comments about bodies, looks, and fuckability are the tip of the iceberg.
Women shouldn’t need or want protectors of their ‘dignity’. Women don’t need to be assigned ‘caring, nurturing, emotive’ roles because they aren’t tough men. Women need to be treated as people.
Perhaps you should retitle your posts.
?
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Thank you Roughseas for this 2nd comment and how you’ve presented it to me… 🙂
“It seems slightly odd, to talk about purchasing the title deed in terms of a relationship with women and say they are NOT a possession, and then to use your main argument against treating an oppressed species in this way by comparing us to an Aston Martin (nice) or a bottle of single malt. Which are … expensive possessions.”
I was attempting to play a role using recognizable male language, that I have indeed listened to among certain males privately or publicly, married or unmarried, in these parts of the U.S. I apologize that I did not make that apparent enough. Sorry.
“In itself, that perpetuates the concept that a woman is a possession not a person, and that they are something that costs money. Some of us are actually household contributors.”
This is a very valid point Roughseas. Your last sentence is particularly poignant. Remember where I live; the state, the region, and (but not as much) the continent/New World. When I’m with certain men in this area, that is in a private relaxed setting where OPENNESS seems invited (or with specific male alpha personalities, simply taken?), I must have the testicles to voice my disagreement, dislike, of that sort of “proprietary” talk. It is antiquated, wrong, and needs to be confronted every single time!
I think, unfortunately though, my personal blog isn’t read/followed by those sorts of men, for various reasons. 😦
“All people deserve dignity. Women deserve it no more or no less than children, old people, homeless people, starving people etc. It sounds like this ghastly southern ideal of cherishing and worshipping women which is anathema to feminism. You deserve dignity too. No more or no less than me. It’s not gender specific.”
Agreed, with one concern: “ghastly southern ideal of cherishing and worshipping women which is anathema to feminism” I see, even with myself, that your point there can be confused with “love”…the highest sort of love in HIS language and with good intent. Am I making sense? Not sure I am because I’m trying hard to check my thoughts, feelings, and words carefully.
“The postscript. Hmm. It did sound like ‘this is a chat for the boys but if a little woman wants to pop in with her pointless perspective, it will be tolerated (and ignored)’. And I know you didn’t mean it like that.”
No, I didn’t mean it like that. I do see now how it could come across that way. Apologies. I was being inclusive, but I guess inclusive with implied conditions? Ooops.
“I do acknowledge that you are raising a difficult issue, especially from a male perspective in the deep south (I scrubbed out backwoods). And that’s good. It’s just that, a white, hetero male isn’t usually the subject of discrimination to the extent that women are. Throwaway comments, jokes, assumptions. It happens all the time to us.”
Agreed. I want to be part of the progressive solution…in my naive hetero Southern white-man way. If the targeted behaviour is among those sorts of men, then being close, hetero, Caucasin, and around those sorts, I see myself in a position to be listened to…SERIOUSLY by them, not just female Feminists! Right?
“I’m not even talking about trying to pick women up for sex. It’s way more than that. So comments about bodies, looks, and fuckability are the tip of the iceberg.”
Totally agree there!
“Women shouldn’t need or want protectors of their ‘dignity’. Women don’t need to be assigned ‘caring, nurturing, emotive’ roles because they aren’t tough men. Women need to be treated as people.”
Not even in jungles like here, like me, where some/many gorillas run rampant and supreme over many women here? Or any similar regions around the world?
“Perhaps you should retitle your posts…”
LOL…now that’s a good idea to consider! Thank you Roughseas. ❤ 😉
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I do see your point, I do. But I am not sure this analogy sits extremely well with me. Partially because I am not so materialistic and so it doesn’t strike much of a cord. My friend wants to put on my suit…fine…he probably should ask, but I probably wouldn’t really care. If he destroyed it maybe. But if I have lots of suits…meh. Some strange people are outside on my deck using my BBQ…that’s a little odd, but in principle I don’t have a problem but my irateness is because they didn’t ask first, but I would probably say “what are you cooking…can I have some? And next time just ask and we’ll do some grilling together.” Using my car as a valet is pretty annoying though, but I would certainly have an issue with the restaurant as well. I am also not sure why my annoyance might be dependent on how rich I am. Perhaps you were trying to compare a woman to something luxurious and expensive. But in accordance with my income some of the things I own, which might not be as expensive, still have great value to me. I guess if the intention was to make me feel violated in some way I might have compared women to a personal keepsake or something. Perhaps you were trying to address the more materialistic male, but then such males with a income like this rarely have any barriers to how they treat women, regardless of how wrong it might be. I see from your comment to Roughseas you were trying to address the alpha-male type and so maybe it might work, but I guess I am just no Alpha-male. Maybe objects of possession are their weakness. But I suspect something would have to be a lot more personal for them to get it. I tend to agree with Roughseas in that comparing women to objects doesn’t address the main point which is the men need to stop treating women as objects. Your analogy seems to be telling men that women are objects, but they are objects you have to treat with care simply because they don’t belong to you. Perhaps a better analogy would be one you could devise that would make such alpha-males see how they might be objectified as well.
I strongly agree though that men to be proactive and call out other men when they are being disrespectful to women. But I think we must also be careful not to send the message that we “gentlemen” must step in there and protect women from being violated. Women are quite capable of doing this on our own as well.
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I should have edited this comment. Grammar errors abound…all these damn students keep coming into my office and asking me questions like I’m their professor or something. So distracting. LOL
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First, thank you a hundred times Swarn for commenting! I do want men involved in the dialogue on this subject — even though I know you well enough to know YOU don’t suffer this type of issue with women; not on the scale(?) 😛 that I do given my “daring” as Roughseas appropriately describes — because it is important (at least for myself) to better understand so that I can be a relevant supporter of equality and feminism. And if I’m a guinea-pig to that end, so be it. I’m stepping up. 😮
Now, off to closely read your’s and Roughseas’ comments! ❤
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I think Swarn’s a bit ahead of the game compared with you. Hey ho, you will get there 🙂
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Sorry, should have added think European not Deep South. Change your mindset. Not that Europe is perfect but it ain’t DS.
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Swarn, that was fantastic. I don’t need to analyse it, it was superb. Beautifully said 🙂
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Thank you for your kind words.
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Again, thank you very much Swarn for your feedback! Now for my thoughts about your content…
Swarn, can you think of any men/male celebrities, Presidential candidates 😉 , professional athletes, or simple unknown (un-named?) male friends that this WOULD strike a cord, even upset? I can think of many! The STILL “popular” Heisman-trophy winner O.J. Simpson to name perhaps the ugliest example.
That is EXACTLY my point in all those scenarios! I know lots of men, from my past and present, that would be very irate by the lack of respect shown…by just “taking” without asking, without any sort of common courteous conversation shown, to a person of value!
If I may Swarn, and let’s keep these pretend roles in mind… the “annoyance dependent on how rich I am” is to somehow, someway get at what this man values in order to recognize HIS possible disvalueing of a woman’s body and honor/dignity. I wasn’t intending to imply in any way, that women are equal to material possessions, HOWEVER, sometimes that’s the logic, the personal value-system some men work by. Make sense?
YES! Exactly! But I was trying to speak, umm…alpha-material-male-anese? Their value-system? 😛
Great idea Swarn! I should’ve checked with you first before Publishing this, huh?
Yes indeed; you are so correct. In public venues when I see this going on, I have stepped in on several occasions… but only when the man ignores her dislike of his offensiveness, and those women are typically smaller than the man and I’ve asked HER first if everything is alright. Yes, respect her ability to defend herself first, but ready to help if she wants it.
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I honestly don’t really know many of the alpha male types, so perhaps that’s my failing here somewhat. I mean not that I haven’t met them before, I’ve just stayed away from such personalities because I rarely have anything in common with them. So perhaps I don’t quite understand the best way to get through to someone like that.
And there is certainly no need to consult me, I was just giving my point of view. I think when I typed my response I wasn’t really sure what exactly didn’t sit well with me and I apologize if I was too critical of something that I know you meant well in spirit. I guess when I sort of step back and look at the problem as a whole, the problem is that such men do not treat women as equals, treat them as people, and instead treat them as objects. So how do we put such people on the right path? For me it always comes down to empathy. How do we get this alpha male type you are speaking to, to see women as people and as equals? When I read your analogy I felt like you were staying in an object oriented realm. Feel sympathy for those women you treat as objects, by thinking about how you would like your objects treated. That’s, I guess, what I got from this post. I guess I simply felt that the goal should be to get two people to see each other as two people, and so an analogy that was more personal would have more of an emotional impact and thus had a better chance of building empathy. Your posts and comments are often full of heart and impactful, but with luxury cars, big houses, and fancy restaurants I wasn’t really feeling it. I know the level of respect and empathy you have towards women and so I just want you to know that I don’t doubt that for a second. Your posts never fail to be artful and this is only a critique of art, and not you. I hope I have not offended you.
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Swarn, you haven’t offended me and I very much appreciate your sensitivity to my feelings/integrity.
Very few words, or discussions ever offend me; I understand “language”… it is sometimes/often emotional (passionate?), mental (subjectively), and sometimes/often both with varying degrees, relative to the Speaker’s experience. The rare times I do blow-up and are offended are almost always over someone/something I care deeply about, will take risks to protect, even great risks, and from these experiences — three of them life-changing or life-threatening — I’ve learned in (quick?) hindsight I could have done things differently, used different phrases/language, more forethought, etc, to increase the potential of a better outcome. However, at the same time I’ve also learned, painfully so, that honesty… raw honesty through emotion (i.e. instinct?) has a MAJOR role to play in reaching “the higher ground.” Success isn’t built upon half-truths and lies. Hence, honesty/emotion most definitely has its proper place despite its sometimes irrational appearance/sound. The trick, I’ve found as I’ve ironically learned when teaching 4th, 5th, and 6th graders, is when & how to “Use your big-boy/big-girl words! Take a deep breath.” LOL 😉
I’ve also learned Swarn, given my geographical hometown (Oak Cliff, Dallas, bordering South Oak Cliff & Fair Park), my own father and his domineering family, having been in competitive sports (futebol) all my life collegiately, pro, and semi-pro… I have been around and part of those stereotypical Alpha-males it seems ALL my life! I’m not bragging about it either, please understand that! 😮 I was truly trying to speak a language (and yes, a barbaric value-system) THEY and by chance those male readers could relate to and understand — if not as a perpetrator, as a modifier. In doing so I’ve UNINTENTIONALLY hurt and/or offended what I was trying to __________ (?) I honestly couldn’t find the correct word right there!
You’re right! I was wanting to create that “sympathy,” that nausea Victoria NeuroNotes had, but place it in the alpha-male’s stomach using a value-system I KNOW they could understand! I should have considered much more closely the subsequent implications to female readers. Grrrrr, fail.
You’re kind Swarn; thank you. Your point of illiciting emotion is taken. Reminds me of one of my past intimate relationships with a phenomenal woman — many details of our connection would be so relevant here, but too lengthy — who was at the time going through her divorce with her extremely wealthy husband who was ex-Special Forces, now Houston/Pearland SWAT team commander. She shared with me something he explicitely told her that began the fracture and destruction of their marriage. It was this… “A separation or divorce is not an option. You are bought and paid for!” That man had put her (and their 2 kids) into a 2-story, 3,500+ sq ft home, two top-of-the-line Ford Expeditions, in a tight “gated community” with 24/7 security guards, la-de-dah… need I go on? HE and males like him are the exact ones I’m cross-hairs targeting… to borrow an apropos term there. LOL
Thank you again for your words at the end. No offense taken. Just bumbling my way through a subject I’m not so good at! 😛
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Thank you for your response, and I’m glad you took my comments in the spirit they were intended. I struggle with analogies myself and sometimes I might understand the form they should take, but am often unable to think of a perfect example. There are definitely people who are way too attached to the objects in their life and maybe that is part of the root of their problem. Having no real emotional bond between their father and maybe even their mother they don’t get the difference between real reciprocal and consensual love between too people. So love of their car seems equivalent to loving a woman. So your example might be very meaningful to such a hyper masculine person who has such attachments to objects, but I would say that he probably should figure out how to be less attached to objects in general, because there really are more important things in this world. I know I’ve read some stories from more alpha-male types who change their attitudes a lot once they have a daughter. That attachment to their child opens their eyes to how deplorably men can treat women and so it is through that emotional channel that empathy and compassion for women as people is built. Not really analogy, and not really that helpful for the alpha-male who doesn’t have a daughter, but it seems to me that an analogy that could address that type of emotional response would be a line of attack into their thinking.
The story you related sounds absolutely horrible. That person’s attitude is tantamount to slavery, and it would appear that husband had no objections to such a relationship in which he was the master and she was slave. Very dehumanizing. 😦
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Oh my! Swarn, you NAILED that one! Bravo! I have a daughter! You are so correct about this type ‘alpha-male gaining a daughter’ often drives home the point I’m struggling to convey here. Yes, the ‘childless alpha-male’ was perhaps the stereotype and their “language” I was attempting to use, their “value-system”.
Swarn, thank you, THANK YOU for saying/commenting and adding so well that analogy from a Father-daughter relationship! Great and profound point! Grrrr, wish I had thought of that.
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You’re welcome sir! Sometimes words can’t break through to a person so set in their ways, only the experience can make the difference. It’s also amazing how many Republican politicians start singing a different tune about homosexuality when they find out they have a gay son or daughter. I guess that experiential learning creates an emotional memory in a way that words never can. It’s frustrating though, because sometimes it feels like things need to change faster than waiting for the right experience to give you an uppercut. 🙂
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“A separation or divorce is not an option. You are bought and paid for!” That man had put her (and their 2 kids) into a 2-story, 3,500+ sq ft home, two top-of-the-line Ford Expeditions, in a tight “gated community” with 24/7 security guards, la-de-dah… need I go on?”
That’s interesting, because this guy probably wouldn’t be able to afford the price-tag of finding people to take care of that 3,500 sq ft home, professional maids, a chef, someone to do the grocery shopping and run other errands, day-care, driver, laundry service, nannies, tutors, and a sex-worker. Economists state that these services could earn a homemaker a considerable wage (six figures) if he or she took those skills to the marketplace.
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I may not need to clarify this — get the feeling you knew this already Victoria — but “that guy/husband” expected those things from her, his wife and the mother of their two boys because HE “afforded them all the luxury” of staying at home; i.e. no need for dual-incomes. And she obliged the role(s) — she was from Kentucky and an uber-Catholic family. Her husband took that setup as a marital proprietary right to dictate relational conditions at home and in public.
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Yes, I get it. It’s called free labor.
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LOL…great truthful description! Funny, that “free labor” came back to bite him in his ass, almost take off both cheeks, when the divorce decree became final, along with Texas child-support, alimony, and more so… her salary-losses (being a homemaker for so long) out of his huge retirement funds! LOL 😛
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*giggles*
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At least someone recognized her worth.
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Yes. And she is now one of the most LIBERATED, happy, life-smart, bubbly women I know! 😉
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Leaving a highly stratified environment that devalues another’s valuable contributions will do that to ya.
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“HE “afforded them all the luxury” of staying at home”
Luxury? LOL If staying at home to take on the domestic role is such a luxury, why do so many men avoid such “luxury”. Even men in other countries who are given paid leave to stay at home with their children only take a small percentage of that leave. Two-and-half-years after Australia’s Labor government offered a parental leave program for new moms and dads, only one dad for every 500 moms was taking it. In the UK, 40% of dads choose not to take the parental leave offered. And in the US (Silicon Valley excepted) the figures are worse: 76% of men take less than a week off when their baby is born and 96% are back at work after two weeks or less.
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LOL…those are some great points Victoria! And see, somewhere in all that social-relational dynamics between genders, I THINK HAS TO BE some genetics, some neuropathology over centuries, millenia, and perhaps beyond, that ALSO affects human behaviour. In this case, certain male types.
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Yeah, it’s called money and status. It’s primarily cultural. How do I know this? Because these behaviors and attitudes change when men are mandated to take paternity leave in Nordic countries.
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Gosh, both Swarn and Kate nailed it. Professor, I do appreciate your attempt, but I think that no matter what you say, you are not going to penetrate the mentality of Southern men who’ve been raised to believe they are/they were made in God’s image, the “glory of God”, and women are the glory of men — or that “God” specifically gave these “godly” men the right to rule over their womenfolk. Hell, even women are listed as property in the 10 Commandments. You are a unbeliever, so don’t think for a single second that you will have any influence over these “godly” men. They know their “god-given” place in the hierarchy. You think they are going to listen to a heathen like you? Don’t make me laugh out loud.
Too late.
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I am ecstatic that you chose to comment Victoria! Thank you! ❤
Your points are so spot-on for our region of the U.S. and I'm so happy a very intelligent well-spoken secular WOMAN, from the deep south, stated it! Thank you again! 🙂
LOL…that is so true. And yes, I can hear you busting-out laughing on the floor, rolling around holding your hurting ribs. 😉
Nevertheless, please feel free to continue adding value to all this. I hope Ruth, at Out From Under the Umbrella, jumps in too. I value very much her feedback as well. I hope too that more men will comment.
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Thank you, Professor. I really appreciate that you have always been open to constructive criticism, and I really respect you for that. I can relate to not being able to articulate my points as well as I would like to, so I have empathy for your frustration.
Even though it’s been 10 years since I deconverted, I still live in the thick of this mentality, so I’m keenly sensitive to it — especially more so since I left that hierarchical quagmire. I have scars/scares that will always serve as a reminder of the harm this mentality has causes to our species.
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I meant to write “scars”
scares too, from time to time. 😉
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I added scars with scares. 😛
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Damn typos. If you need clarification, let me know.
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Post-script — Yes, I’m aware that the less “godly” men may also have the propensity to treat women as possessions. I read your post last night, and I literally had a physical reaction — I got sick to my stomach. I know you meant well.
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Sorry for your physical reaction V. 😦 I’m like a blind-folded bull in a china-closet on this… I realize that. But I genuinely want this subject more at the forefront of social problems in our part of the world, especially for myself because I’ve learned — thanks to you, Roughseas, Ruth, and other females — how clumsy I can be with this.
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No apologies necessary. I just wanted to let you know what my first reaction was. It’s interesting how prevalent this mindset is because of the centuries of indoctrination, even from the likes of famous philosophers such as Aristotle. How could someone who is esteemed so highly among most men miss the mark so much when it comes to the women? So much unnecessary suffering and yet, to this day, women are still having to work at being treated as fully human.
I think the biggest hurtle for women gaining their full human status has been because so few men have stepped up to the plate. As Christopher Hitchens once said, many if not most men don’t see the benefit. The privileged don’t want to give up their privilege in society.
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Here hear! *raises glass to salute!* Very well said Ma’am. ❤
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I’m with the previous commenters. You quite literally objectified in an attempt to say there should be no objectification. Women’s bodies are not commodities, though they are often treated as such (including in this post). The postscript along with the opening address to ‘sir’ is unwelcoming to say the least. I think the point you are trying to get across comes from a good place, but perhaps you would be better served by listening and boosting signals.
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As always Madalyn, thank you for your feedback! 🙂
Please, would you elaborate some more on “…perhaps you would be better served by listening and boosting signals.” What do you mean exactly by “boosting signals”? That’s an interesting… image to me. ❤
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Hey Professor,
All I meant was that, rather than trying to come up with illustrations for situations you haven’t experienced, you could spread the stories and examples being put forth by those that do have those experiences. I know you strive to be an ally for women and one of the best ways to do that is by simply listening and passing along the message.
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Madalyn, I totally agree. Yes, the Professor does want to be an ally for women, no argument there regarding motive. I think the real issue is, which I suspect he is trying to bridge, is how to present equality with sexist rednecks (for want of a better expression) compared with how the rest of us see the world.
It’s like here are dinosaurs, and here are iPads. There’s a large gap.
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Thank you Madalyn. 🙂
Roughseas aptly and correctly summed-up my motive: “trying to bridge” the gap between the alpha-male “dinosaurs” I have been surrounded by all my life — even today in this tiny Hill Country town of Kerrville, outside of San Antonio — and their language/iPad… fumbling or having blatant disregard for the humanity and integrity of a woman/person. And I’ve discovered through all of this, I also flub-up because I MOST DEFINITELY have that “dinosaur” gene in me, that aggressive alpha-male conquer her/them gene. 😦 In certain circumstances, with specific type women…that gene, that “beast” roars LOUD in my gut, and yes… perhaps my crotch too, admittedly — being honest with my male nature. I am really trying to change that in me, keeping it in tame-check.
As you might surmise, I’m not one to be a spectator long. I like (LOVE?) to dive-in, swim, get messy, laugh, etc, like a full-blown Participator wants to do! 😉
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Professor, I’d like to clarify something you keep bringing up — alpha males. While I agree that some alpha males can be total jerks, not all of them are. beta males can be jerks too. In fact, they make up a lot of the internet harassment towards women. I know alpha males who treat women equal and don’t objectify them. What we are contending with here in the South and other specific regions of the world is hyper-masculinity (exaggerated male traits).
Turn on TV, or watch any action-pack movie or commercials, magazine ads, and you will see hyper-masculinity. Also, primate studies have demonstrated that much of the “jerk” in alpha male primates is cultural-social, not intrinsic. They’ve also shown that beta male primates can also be jerks, and will abuse the females because they are stressed due to the highly stratified environment of their troops. Beta male primates will give up a cherry juice award to view images of alpha males. Scientists say it’s a form of worship, so I am not surprised that humans get off on the same thing, hence, alpha male deities.
Here’san article I think you might find interesting, written by a guy regarding hyper-masculinity and objectifying women:
Check out the link he posts (Genderads) regarding media advertisement that keeps that directly contributes to widening the gap between men and woman. Over 4000 ad images have been gathered on this site, and it is disturbing.
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Ahh, thank you Victoria for mentioning that difference! Yes, I am well aware that even the term “Alpha-male” is a broad catch-all word that can incorrectly describe a large group of men. I thought about that when I chose the word, but for the sake of time went with it. In fact, I’ve been called an Alpha-male on several occasions. Yes, everything you’ve mentioned is valid! Thank you. 🙂
BAAM! You are correct there. I want to do my small part, sometimes and obviously not too well as evidenced here, but I have you wonderful people to assist this Neo-Hetero Pseudo-Alpha-Male, right? 😀
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“…to assist this Neo-Hetero Pseudo-Alpha-Male, right?”
Goodness knows, I’ve tried, but you keep inviting me to your dungeon so you can dominate me. Ain’t gonna happen bro. 😛
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Bwahahaha!!! Touché Ma’am. 😉
However, I think it best for here and now to leave the “dungeon” chat alone. The two are SO very different, practically alien to each other. Nevertheless, I hope you are always around trying (as you do) to keep me in-line… sort of. 😈
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I’ll try not to talk about your dark-side. *snickers* Feel free to delete this and my other comment about dungeons. I just couldn’t resist as the moment was so right for it. 😀
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No need to Victoria, and thank you for saying that. ❤ I'm not ashamed of who I am. I guess I should qualify that… not ashamed of who I am, but sometimes ashamed by WHAT I do or don't do, say or don't say. But the person? The core values? Yes, the "dark-side" of which you hint, which is strictly private for very few to REALLY know or want to know? Nope, not ashamed.
My explorer-personality takes me to many many intense places, people, on intense impactful meaningful memorable journies! I like it! Many times I love it! And those journies are just MORE experiencial learning lessons when I have very willing travel companions/partners. After all, it's about sharing a SIGNIFICANT life isn't it? 😉
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Yes, I understand, Professor. You are private about it — but the reality is — this fantasy of dominance has been sanctified in religion and culture, and those that practice this openly in the name of their culture use the same reasoning you do. It takes them to many may intense place. Hail dopamine. 😉
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I think now we should be careful how we approach THIS topic. Agreed? 🙂
With that shot-over-the-bow done, your word “fantasy” is truly the operative word there. And HOW that fantasy is allowed, managed, and nurtured is critical-mass to our “specialized” legal and public group/community. Unless one knows intimately of the smallest details of which I’m speaking… it is very, very difficult to wrap their head around. My Kentucky ex-girlfriend (above) often told me that she just doesn’t bother explaining her “deepest inner woman and those dark desires” BECAUSE she’s tried and it doesn’t click, it doesn’t register because those women haven’t been there and done it. Her expression in saying this was one of matter-of-factly… so don’t bother, she would conclude. LOL
Yes, “Hail dopamine!” It is indeed one of only very few natural “nectars of life” — but use sparingly and responsibly. 😉
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Agreed. My point being — we live in a culture that values dominance and aggression so much that it’s also played out in fantasy.
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“…so much that it’s also played out responsibly, legally, safely, consentually, and sanely in fantasy.” 😉 ❤
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“sanely” is questionable. lol
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I and many of my “specialized” community would use the word “argueably“, not your word questionable. But then, setting and responsibility are once again paramount to the discussion. 😀
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I understand. It’s just that you can say that religious traditions are bat-shit-crazy, but when utilized in fantasy, it’s “specialized”. *snorts* Oh how I love the double standards of our societies. 😈
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LOL…call it specialized, or call it more accurately what Ms. Kentucky described as “feeding a primal need/desire”…HER primal need/desires. Given how popular and how many active establishments (of our Dark Art) exist around the world, she is certainly not the only female who wants it, but also gets it…as in understands it.
But in her defense — to not sound like a clinically disturbed, hurting, messed-up woman — her public and occupational postion and image are perfectly fine, healthy, and upstanding; she has to because she’s an EXCELLENT Mom! In fact, MANY women in our “establishments” are well-known corporate CEO’s. My point being is that our Dark Art is too often maligned and completely misunderstood by public opinion.
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I understand, but I do think that culture tends to put way to much emphasis on archaic primal urges. The Navy trains their Seal recruits to bypass the “primal urge” part of their brain, and redirect it to the prefrontal cortex. So many people turn to their most primitive parts of themselves, whether in fantasy or religion (also fantasy), risk-taking, etc, to get the most bang from their bio-pharmacy. Just gotta be careful, cuz that stuff is very addictive. 😉
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And I should’ve added too that YOUR perspective and expertise Victoria, is STILL quite valuable and needed! And with all due respect, your expertise and perspective is perfect for many ‘confused(?)’ brain-washed(?) women, but not ALL women. ❤ 🙂
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Thank you. I’d also include brainwashed men.
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LOL…which by default would include me and possibly our topic and threads of discussions.
But nevertheless, to be fair and “equal”, you are correct Ma’am. 😉
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Btw, when you refer to a country, or a car, or ship, etc, do you say “she” or “her”. Was just curious, because female objectification is so embedded in our psyche, it’s universal.
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Well, I don’t want to over-analyze your question (trick question?) because you’ve kept me ‘dancing on my toes‘ so much here my calves are killing me, but… 😉
to be perfectly honest, I don’t do or say as you listed, however, when I refer to our organic world and the macro-scopic Cosmos to the sub-atomic levels and dynamic interactions of them all, I do sometimes refer to it as Mother Nature. Does that count? Is that bad too? 😮
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Well, to be honest with you, I’m not trying to split hairs. I’m just hoping to explore the psychological, subconscious underpinnings that might be encouraging thoughts like “conquering mother nature”. Or the association of the feminine when nature causes natural disasters. It’s only been in very recent years that hurricanes were given both female and male names. Before that, all hurricanes were given female names. I have to run for now. I have a dinner date.
Tootles. Thank you for your graciousness. You tip-toe so elegantly. 😛
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I’d be very interested in the findings of that/your exploration in “conquering mother nature”! If you have the chance, please share them here… if possible given the format-protocols of WordPress.
Hah, you are welcome. Next time, can you make the rhythm, pace, beat… much slower!? *heavy breathing & panting* 😉
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Supporting feminism is also about keeping whatever in check. And letting others speak. They are usually called women. Dealing with the dickheads? As Victoria says, it’s a battle already lost. Work on the ones we can change.
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Does MY “silence”, as you suggest, carry over to when pro-sexist males are strutting their masculinity (testosterone), verbally or physically, around women or directly to a woman? I don’t think you mean that, right?
I have evolved and modified my own dinosaurish Homo erectus behaviour and language to realize WHEN I should be silent, letting the “experts” speak (the spectator role), however, I do see the responsibility of acting upon too, as a member (deactive member?) of the hetero white male ‘sexist-Texan’ gender group, to not sit idly by and allow the sexism to continue…as a…Neo-hetero sexy male 😉 I feel I am obligated to address the barbaric language with my peers.
In all seriousness, am I distinguishing the difference? Am I on the right track at least?
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Sort of, darling, sort of 😀
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@ Victoria cos I don’t do the email subscribe thing. That is an excellent linky (and not a vid phew). I think beta males are probably a bigger issue because they suffer from superiority complex, and that is a major problem when they take out their problems on women 🙂
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“I think beta males are probably a bigger issue because they suffer from superiority complex, and that is a major problem when they take out their problems on women.”
I agree. Recent studies done on gamers showed that it was the beta males who were acting like asshats towards women gamers.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/sexist-men-who-abuse-women-on-the-internet-are-compensating-for-their-own-poor-performance-study-10403481.html
This really explains the popularity of authoritarian religions, giving permission for men to rule over women, such as the 3 Abrahamic religions.. As Christopher Hitchens once said, men invented religion so they could own women.
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If they hadn’t invented religion they would have invented something else …
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Professor, I do think you have opened up an important and fascinating discussion.
I think one of the issues is that, Swarn, Victoria, Madalyn and I all pretty much come from the same POV.
When Swarn said about not mixing with certain types of men, I totally understood. I rarely do.
However, I think what you have said about being able to talk to a peer group is critical. Would they listen to me or Victoria or Madalyn? Of course not. But does Victoria’s depressing comment ‘too late‘ mean we shouldn’t try? Unless we choose to accept defeat.
As background, I grew up in a working class background, where men were men and women did as they were told (I broke the mould). My father was an engineer and in the RN. My mother gave up work because he didn’t like coming home to an empty house.
Interestingly, while you and Swarn consider a daughter makes a difference, all I saw — as a daughter — was obsessive, protective patriarchal control. It doesn’t always work out.
My husband works in construction. The days of wolf whistles have gone, but he did admonish a Gib roadworker for ogling a young teenager and pointed out that she was young enough to be his daughter. Interestingly, I’ve met a lot of his Spanish construction co-workers and they don’t have the English-speaking sexist mindset. Most odd given that construction is still a pretty macho environment.
Perhaps it’s his trade, but he treats women as people. He goes into their homes to decorate, he accepts lifts from them, he has coffee with them. He comes from one of the most deprived areas of the UK (in South Wales), very sporting – rugby land – and should be as sexist as they come, going on stereotypes. But, because of his background, he is well-placed to disagree and challenge views, or set an example, or whatever.
And that I think, was your point. When you speak the same language, share the same background, you can try to change opinions. So, you are better-placed than any of us to do it. The real question is, how do you do that? And I think the consensus on here is not by further objectification. I think the challenge for the rest of us, and you, is to come up with credible points for discussion with your macho hetero alpha redneck associates. Not easy.
I admire you for daring to go against the prevailing culture where you live. It can’t be easy. It’s never easy to challenge cultural norms and assumptions, especially with regard to sexism in such a religious macho place as Texas.
I also think it’s important to differentiate between the consensual sexual activities of your chosen lifestyle and the overtly sexist behaviour of others that you are referring to. The two are not the same.
I’m more than willing for you to be a feminist ally and speak out for women. Just, choose your comparators carefully.
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Wow Roughseas! Seriously, what else needs to be said after that split-the-arrow, bulls-eye hit? LOL 😮
Hah! Could not have put any finer or more true Roughseas. Applause for you. 🙂
Yes! Yes, and triple YES! Thank you! My “motives” exactly! I wasn’t aware that I could offend my female readers, but thank you for seeing BEYOND my flaws here to understand the Spirit of the post. ❤
You hit it spot-on. In those certain circumstances in the past where I “stepped-up” in public for her — her honor, integrity, etc. — sometimes it was even to confront a larger man than me; one or two I remember I thought had symptoms of psychological disturbances, to put it politely, it’s scary nerve-racking sure, but it has to be done. “Fear” shouldn’t reign supreme in a world of Bullies. 😉
Another aspect of my personality and character does indeed put me in those “risky(?)” situations — be it impoverished economic areas of a HUGE metroplex, or in a Psych/A&D clinic/hospital, or at a politically charged rally or protest — I AM NOT one to drive around, walk around, avoid some edgy or potentially volatile situation/event… yes, even when I’m unsure of my safety… because I SEE the possible rewards outweight the risks. As I’ve mentioned in my comments above, I’m not much of a Spectator (for long), but more a curious(?), confident existential Explorer who LOVES to engage all types. Diversity is often my personal “nectar”, if that term makes sense.
Mmmm, thank you so much for saying that. You are kind, and you are correct. ❤
Yes! The PRIVATE activities I participate in and sanely promote, really have nothing to do with the goings on of social public issues. Totally agree, they are two different galaxies.
Thank you Roughseas. You are a gem! 😉
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Dear me. I’m British. Please back off a tad.
But seriously, I think speaking to peer groups is one thing, but doing it to reinforce stereotypes is not good 😦
For me the issue, is not standing up for me personally in public – I can do that – it’s the common insults that happen every day. Not at an individual woman. At women in general. The question is, how do you fight that? Big difference between standing up for a little woman (groan) and standing up for women in general. I’d like to leave you with that thought.
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LOL…gotcha. A little TOO MUCH Neo-hetero sexy manly charm? 😈
As for your final paragraph, I admire your confidence Roughseas, I do. I’d imagine that you are a tall woman? Clever and shrewd enough to deal with most male sexists threats/offenses? Are you trained in one of the martial arts? 😉
Remember, this is the “Crude-World” as it is the New-World; it’s not progressive, highly-evolved Europe. 😛
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And that, my darling is why I’m happy in Europe 😉
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Pingback: Build for Life, Not for Fixes | Professor Taboo
The simile seemed fine to me; if one is to impart on someone an understanding of a feeling or emotion they might not have otherwise considered in others, one would per-force do it in terms the intended audience might understand.
To me, the drawing the link between the examples trying to instill an emotion and saying those examples are subtly or perhaps obviously equating women to property/objects is a huge stretch.
And it’s great that some commenters, because of their obvious generous and worldly nature, cannot see how some of those situations might make one experience those emotions . . . but I don’t believe them. And, before I am rebuffed, I will claim the same right to interpret motive, intent, and the nature of others as claimed by others commenting here.
. . . I’m sure I’ll hear about I’m wrong in my thinking, but it’s my thinking, and I make no excuses for it . . .
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Exactly! Thank you for that specific endorsement Disperser. 🙂
That crossed my mind as well, but given the fact that I was/am a struggling “Rookie” on the social-issue, I thought it best to remain humble rather than critical.
Mmm, another great point Disperser.
LOL…HAH! Nah, don’t worry. Those possible potential “rebuttals” will not likely happen; those particular Commenters usually storm-off in a huff and never return to this post & comments. Now, if you’d like I can summon them back? 😈
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I am familiar with a few. Some I still interact with, others are not worth my time (what little I have left), so no need at this time; I’m sure the future will bring enough opportunities to do so, probably more than I want.
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“those particular Commenters usually storm-off in a huff and never return.”
Professor, were you referring to me, Swarn, Kate and Madalyn? =/
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No my dear Victoria. I was not referring to you. You have a seemingly endless amount of patience & respect for me to include you as a “huffy one”. 😉 Besides, you show a tremendous amount of tact and dignity in your WORDS to me even when we disagree. Plus, you’ve never lashed out at me; you are very slow to anger. I adore that about you! 🙂 ❤
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