Israel & War Continued

Posted on by

Earlier this month I was asked to write a guest blog-post regarding the Israel-Hamas Conflict that erupted (again) inside Palestine Oct. 7, 2023. I was very happy to do this for a good blogging friend and offer a less than popular viewpoint about the “recent” history of Israel inside Palestine since 1947-48. For the sake of brevity and at the expense of detailed historical facts since 1945, I was also restricted only to the “biblical-theological” justification or evidence for Israel being inside Palestine, if there was any. This position is impossible to defend on principles as well as biblical texts. Therefore, this was a major challenge for me, especially knowing beforehand that my personal viewpoint is NOT well received inside a generally Conservative, (hyper?) religious United States and typically pro-Israel primarily on religious evangelical and very narrow political reasons only.

During the blog-post I was heavily challenged by one or two commenters about my position on the conflict. Unfortunately, those ‘challenges’ were heavily moderated and not allowed for me to answer or rebut said challenges when I was perfectly prepared to do so. I also was debating the issue of what should be done over at Gary’s Escaping Christian Fundamentalism, primarily about history’s time-periods. But my counter-rebuttals on the first blog-post, before they were even allowed, were viewed as excessive, bordering on primate fighting, and feeding an irate lion attacking me. I completely and unequivocally disagree with this hasty, premature assumption. Hence, this post. I wish to show my civility and deep knowledge on this highly controversial topic inside the U.S.

Two primary points or challenges were asserted to me based upon false pretenses:

  1. “Ancient” history cannot be corrected or rectified in the 21st century.
  2. Invaded, conquered, and occupied land cannot be returned to the previous owners.

Both of these pretenses cannot be adequately defended and this is why they cannot.

On #1, this weak defense is ultimately irrelevant. Of course we cannot change things for the better today that took place well over 500–2000 years ago. This is a no brainer. I have never advocated for this to take place today, particularly inside Palestine. Anyone who throws this up at me is either NOT fully reading or comprehending my thorough, deeply researched “recent” history on the conflict, or they just want to ignore it all together. Period.

On #2, actually within “recent” history, this has been done on numerous occasions. When invading, conquering, occupying nations accept in remorse and see their wrong-doing, atrocious methods of land-grabbing by annexation, violence, massacring, and/or war, there has been plenty of cases where they returned the conquered land or the international community (the U.N.) made them give back the illegally seized land.

Before I give those examples, let me define what is the difference between “ancient” history, “modern” history, and “recent” history.

Ancient history is considered by most historical scholars today as the time-period before 1500 CE, or prior to the Middle/Medieval Age. This is a period where today it is near or completely impossible to forensically investigate and/or challenge “traditional” transgenerational oral or written narrations. Victors almost always write their own version of ancient events—today we have little to go on to verify their objective accounts of events. These attempts to use ancient history to justify current 21st century facts, is usually an exercise in foolishness. It’s a can of worms for sure.

Modern history is considered by many/most scholars today as the time from 1500 CE to 1945. I agree with this decision. Even verifying factually events between 1500–1799 can be extremely difficult. It takes years to plausibly draw definitive conclusions about world events, much less 100% certainty.

However, Recent history is a whole other ballgame. The time after 1945–present day is much, MUCH easier to forensically or evidentially, via multiple sources, verify and reverify. This absolutely applies to Zionist Israel from 1897–present. It also applies to Israel’s major ally, the United States, and how the U.S. was an evil bed-partner militarily and economically in accessorizing and aiding Israel’s illegal creation in a foreign land in 1946-47 inside an already occupied territory for several millenia.

Yes, the land that Israel illegally stole from Palestine with the major help of the United States absolutely CAN be returned to Palestine with the help of the General Assembly of the U.N. Why? Because reparations or returned land has been done numerous times in the past:

  • In 1988 Congress voted to extend an apology and pay $20,000 to each Japanese-American survivor of the internment. More than $1.6 billion was paid to 82,219 eligible Japanese-American claimants.
  • African-American survivors of police abuses in Chicago; victims of forced sterilization; and black residents of a Florida town that was burned by a murderous white mob, have been given reparations.
  • Many reparations have been made by the U.S. government to Native American Indians and the many injustices done by the U.S. government and its military in the 19th-century.
  • After World War II, Japan returned the territories it had invaded and occupied in China, Korea and Southeast Asia.
  • In 1956, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt as part of the Suez Crisis agreement.
  • In 1975, Spain returned the Western Sahara to Morocco and Mauritania.
  • In 1999, the United Kingdom returned Hong Kong to China.
  • In 2002, The United States returned control of the Panama Canal to Panama.

Therefore, I stand by my position on Israel-Palestine sternly, earnestly, and unwaveringly. Israel must give back what they have stolen from Palestine and the U.S., the U.K., and France must be the primary movers in making this happen pronto! Otherwise, there will never be lasting peace in Gaza-Palestine until Israel and the U.S. admit their horrible judgement and evil doing in 1946-47. Period.

Is that a realistic possibility? Odds are less than 2% to 0% because both Israel and the U.S. are highly arrogant, hyper proud, and consider themselves hyper-self-righteous and they’ve never done anything wrong to other peoples, ever in the history of humanity. Admitting wrong-doing and rectifying it is just not in the DNA of Israel or the U.S. Period.

Fair Warning for any Commenters — any incivility or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please review my Professor’s Netiquette page for details. Thank you. 🙂

The Professor’s Convatorium © 2023 by Professor Taboo is licensed under CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 

81 thoughts on “Israel & War Continued”

  1. When the United States of America returns the lands they stole from First Nations Peoples, then they can say they have rectified one of the largest land-grabs in history. Since THAT will never happen the USA will forever be damned by their own self-righteousness! (Canada is little better! Australia and New Zealand are equally unjustified!) So I want to know why the State of Israel was gifted to the Israelis! Because of the way Nazis mistreated them?
    I am not saying I am insensitive to the holocaust, but the holocaust was nothing in comparison to the way Indigenous Peoples all over the world were treated by Europeans/Englishmen from 1492 to the present day. If the Nazis were guilty of something, and they were, so is every white American, Canadian, Australian, and New Zealander — along with a lot of other people in other smaller places all over this planet we all supposrdly call home. We know all the facts!

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply ↓

      • If that is true, and I heavily emphasize IF, then taking a broad stroke of stereotyping ALL humans as evil, based merely on one’s own theological beliefs is… well, if I’m honest Arnold, smacks of self-deification or something of that essence. Again, with due respect and patience my friend. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply ↓

          • Ooooooh Arnold. If only all 8.05-billion humans thought and felt that way!!! What a much happier, peaceful world we would live! 🙄 If that were true, we would’ve stopped murdering, massacring, and committing genocide against each other for the last 300,000+ years. However, this takes us way onto and down impertinent rabbit-trails and holes.

            But nevertheless, I’m going to briefly indulge you with your implicit intent by the question. 😉

            Purely speaking genetic differences:

            The human genome comprises about 3 × 10 to the 9th-power base pairs of DNA, and the extent of human genetic variation is such that no two humans, save identical twins, ever have been or will be genetically identical. Between any two humans, the amount of genetic variation—biochemical individuality—is about 0.1 percent. [1]

            Hence, we are all very, very, VERY closely related internally. Unfortunately, for most of humanity’s history though, various cultures and regions of Homo sapiens’ existence, we desire to distinguish ourselves as different or better than “them.” This is absolutely a primate trait from millenniums of evolutionary time.

            So realistically speaking, no… most humans would NOT categorize themselves as “related” in your terms to others on a different continent or alien culture and traditions dissimilar to their own. This psychological flaw we Homo sapiens have might be described as, “Fear of the Unknown” or “Misunderstood” and paralysis of said mental condition or self-imposed flaw.

            Much of these fear-flaws stem from many external or environmental impressions, put onto us over phases of a human lifetime. IOW, like it or not, we are all malleable by our environments as well as our human genetics transgenerationally over 300,000+ years.

            ————————————
            Source:

            [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK20363/

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply ↓

      • But where does agreement get us? What action can be taken? The only real reconciliation, no matter what nation we are talking about, is to rid the worod of Racism! The only acceptable consequence is living together as equals. But Australia spoke just last week, the racist whites like feeling supeior to their indigenous peoples, 61% to 39% were the last figures I heard. There can be no reconciliation there. The only good news coming out of their referendum is the YES vote grew compared to earlier referendums.
        What would a referendum in Israel/Palestine tell us, if the question were asked “Are you willing to try to live peacefully with all your neighbours as total equals without hatred and bloodshed?”

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply ↓

        • All excellent questions rawgod. But despite self-proclamations of self-righteousness by nations and/or peoples (individuals included), as you rightly stated:

          The only acceptable [posture or] consequence is living together as equals.

          That is the only humane, reasonable, and assuring method of peace on Earth between all peoples… is to GET OFF your high horse immediately and take not only FULL OWNERSHIP of your recent wrong doings, but also to work relentlessly to atone your wrongs for the future benefits of yet unborn generations to come.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply ↓

          • Don’t hold your breath. For whatever reason, there is a segment of humans who enjoy creating havoc, discord, and division. And of course, there’s always the group that benefits from the all this via the resultant wars.

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply ↓

            • That is so sadly very true Nan. Evangy-Fundy Christians, and for that matter ALL extreme religious zealots MUST have global chaos in order to fulfill THEIR OWN Abrahamic religious eschatology, no matter how ridiculous it is founded and portrayed. One almost would think those Faith-believers prefer DEATH and TORTURE over peace and life!

              Liked by 1 person

    • Great question Ark.

      Obviously the answer(s) will be extremely delicate as well as diplomatic. Stern authority will have to be provided regarding terrorist groups like Hamas, ISIS, etc., mostly funded and supplied by Iran and to a lesser extent Turkey. [1] But everyone will agree that the fighting and killing must first stop. Period.

      As a start, my proposal would be to backup, rewind historical, factual, verifiable events from most recent back to 1946. Hence, looking at the MSNBC map, the first slide of its timetable would be the hope by the international community.

      In pre-1937 Palestine the region was experiencing stable, peaceful coexistence among multiple religious groups. This deteriorated when large masses of Eastern European Jews began immigrating there. Why there? Three reasons: (1) no other nations wanted them, (2) Diaspora Jews have always theologically believed that the area of western Palestine was their true home, even though many of them had never lived there. And (3) Eastern Europe had become near impossible to live (economically) after the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire and post-WW1.

      Meanwhile, “Arab demands for independence and resistance to immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides. UK considered various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, the UK turned the Palestine problem over to the UN.” [2] Many attempts and appeals to the League of Nations & U.N. by Palestinian Arabs for self-determination and statehood were denied. This only fueled sharp tension while Diaspora Jews fled to Palestine anyway, helped by groups such as the World Zionist Organization (WZO) founded by Theodor Herzl. [3]

      Ark, that is a very truncated summary of background to Zionist Judaism and Palestine. There’s actually a lot more to be learned, but given this very convoluted, little understood conflict, we should move on.

      With the above stated, it becomes CLEAR that this modern conflict and slaughter of civilians by BOTH sides is not simply a Hamas/ISIS terrorist problem, but instead a U.N. problem originally exacerbated by the U.N. itself and the allied victors of WW1 and WW2. This certainly makes the United States a major accomplice and player in which it too MUST rectify its wrongs of “Recent” history!

      Therefore, all nations of the world, including Arab-Muslim nations equally, MUST be at the negotiating table to begin mandating what Israel must sacrifice and compromise as well as to a lesser extent, Palestine. Terrorist groups are a separate issue and should be dealt with accordingly, precisely like Egypt has done with Hamas. The primary focus of this new U.N. resolution is to correct, on principles of equity and verifiable historical facts of Europe & the Near East in the early 1900’s to the present, what it screwed up in the first place due to immense pressures by the WZO, American Zionist groups/individuals, and the West’s collaboration of treating the Arabs, in general as well as in Palestine, as inferior not worthy of “self-determination”… as ANY western sovereignty would want. In two words, full equality at the U.N.’s General Assembly.

      It must be remembered, that the U.N., the U.S., the U.K., and France were all a contributor for this 78+ years of violence in Palestine and take full ownership of their dirty hands in it.

      Ark, I may need to come back to this as well to include, further elaborate, or better clarify my position, so thanks in advance for that please.

      ——————————
      Sources:

      [1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding

      [2] https://www.un.org/unispal/history/

      [3] https://www.britannica.com/biography/Theodor-Herzl

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply ↓

        • Yep, agreed wholeheartedly Ark. However, the international community, especially all the Superpowers of the U.N., must rectify what they themselves royally screwed up in the first place. It is on us, Israel, Palestine, and all U.N. member nations to participate fully and do it, pronto.

          Again, terrorism and radical terrorist groups—and their backers—are a separate though related issue. First comes Israel being wrongly inside Palestine.

          The WRONG thing to do is throw up our hands (in the West) and keep saying what was done in 1946 is done. No! That is NOT a solution in the least. If anything, that is a horrible cop out.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply ↓

          • Let me see if I’ve understood what you are getting at.
            1.We know Israel was created a state by the ‘superpowers’.

            And you consider it is primarily their responsibility to sort it out.
            Okay so far?

            2. To my mind a Two State policy seems to be not only the best option but the only viable option.
            3. Even if all concerned parties agreed to the Two State solution Palestine as it is now is a fractured group of mini homelands ( remember I mentioned Bophuthatswana over at Nan’s spot?)
            Such an arrangement is not only highly impractical but almost untenable realistically.

            That leaves dividing the land more or less in half with a mutual border ( think England and Scotland for example)
            But even if the Israelis agree to this arrangement and the ‘superpowers’ and perhaps some of the Arab countries chipped in with financial and logistical support this STILL leaves the question of Hamas and this Palestinian Islamic Jihad group ( did I get that right?)
            Therefore, levelling blame at ( primarily) the US and the UN is pointless if Hamas and other terrorist groups refuse to negotiate/ compromise.

            This is what I am interested to read: what is /are the options to finding a lasting peace?
            Thoughts on this?

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply ↓

            • #1 — Yes. All your deductions are correct.

              #2 — Well, THAT should be decided by the entire U.N. General Assembly. However, I would definitely favor Israel sacrificing and compromising the most. Period. But yes, that MIGHT BE the only “modern” solution even though I think it ignores major injustices by Israel and the U.S.

              #3 — And THIS is where all parties/nations concerned MUST get off their highly egotistical, self-righteous high horses! That includes Iran/Turkey backed Hamas/ISIS. But again, that is an entirely DIFFERENT arena of U.N. management just like Al-Qaeda was after 9/11.

              Again Ark, radical terrorism is another whole different issue! Period. It cannot be acceptable by ANY nations of the world because all it does is throw more jet-fuel on the fire! GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES Superpowers and Israel!!!

              Lasting peace?

              The entire General Assembly of the U.N. stomping their foot down on Israel, Hamas, and Palestine and Israeli terrorist groups in unison. But because the Superpowers created this conflict in the first place, THEY must unrelentingly DEAL with its compromises and end. Period.

              Liked by 1 person

            • 1. Define sacrificing and comprising the most.

              2. What Israeli terrorist groups are you referring to?

              3. But again, if all compromises are met and Hamas and other Jihadist groups refuse to come to the table what options are left?

              Liked by 1 person

            • My goodness Ark! You’re going to give me a big head with all these flattering questions to me, as if I myself am a major-player at the U.N. General Assembly! 😉

              Newsflash! PT/Dwain doesn’t see a quick silver-bullet solution, OTHER THAN backing up, rewinding the factual, chronological events-clock just one, two at the most, generations (i.e. “recent” history)… to 1947 and Resolution 181 v.2, otherwise known as the Partition Plan. We have to start somewhere since far, FAR too many people, groups, and nations keep burying their ostrich heads in the sand regarding any pre-1947 verifiable history (ridiculous nonsense!), to be fair to Palestinians and their RIGHTFUL homeland and the right to be “self-determining,” I say start here. Here’s why:

              That is an outstanding fair summary of the terrible injustices done to Palestinians. Israel is the one that has and keeps land-grabbing! Period. No debate.

              So Ark, to your #1 — Israel goes BACK to the original 1947 Partition Plan the U.N. drew up for them. Palestinians accepted that then, they can do it again. However, I am NOT so opposed in the least if they rightfully demand MORE than that original Partitioning given what they’ve been put through by Israel. In that case, the U.N. and its Superpowers MUST be stern in backing Palestine’s homeland rights, like any other nations—not religious entities—have fought for.

              To your #2 — Let’s start with Abraham Feinberg and Reuben Shiloah, founder of Mossad. I highly recommend reading this FBI file on Feinberg, found here:

              https://www.israellobby.org/feinberg/

              Next will be official Zionist militant groups or Zionist terrorist groups: Haganah’s Intelligence group with Irgun Awai Leumi and Lohamei Herut are major ones regarding the creation of Israel in 1947–1970’s. [1] In chronological order, Brit HaKanaim (1950-53), Kingdom of Israel Group (1950’s), Jewish Underground (1979-1984), Keshet (1981-1989), Kach/Kahane (1971-1994) but now considered by Israel a banned group, Terror Against Terror (1975-1984), Sicarii (1989-present), Bat Ayin (2002-present), Lehava (2005-present), Sikrikim (2005-present), “The Revolt” (2013-present).

              Keep in mind Ark that some/many of these Israeli militant/terrorist groups have gone defunct because so much Palestinian land has been annexed/stolen up to this date, and thus there is less need for so many.

              And to your #3, that’s a great question, and one best suited for the U.N. and all its member nations, ESPECIALLY the western superpowers who created this debacle in the first place.

              —————————
              Source:
              [1] https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel

              Liked by 1 person

            • So, in a nutshell, right or wrong, if the Israel Situation was rewound to 1947, Hamas and other Jihadists would still not be happy as their sole objective seems to be to eradicate Israel come hell or high water.

              Therefore , everything Israel might do to rectify the situation is, ostensibly meaningless in the face of Islamic aggression.
              Under these circumstances what incentive does Israel have to give in to such demands?
              You know if you bend over backwards far enough either your spine will snap or you will see your arse.

              Liked by 1 person

            • Again Ark, terrorist groups, no matter what nation of origin or religious persuasion they hail from, is a (very?) DIFFERENT fight, arena, ballgame, etc., for the U.N. members than what I’m asserting here between two sovereign states.

              Having said that, Brian (blhphotoblog) brings up critical & significant points in his comments about the U.N.’s Superpowers and how much sway they have on global politics. This is why there is no quick silver-bullet fix, even from me. I recognize this, BUT I approach it all from purely secular principles of moral, ethical, and neutral values. This is/was ironically the primary purpose of the League of Nations then the United Nations. Was it not?

              And I am fully aware that the United States sometimes EXEMPTS itself from U.N. Resolutions when it does not suit their own ideologies. Hence, the USA only exacerbates this global problem.

              Liked by 1 person

        • It’s a difficult one. For a 2 state solution to work, both parties have to actually want it. I get the impression that most Palestinians (and Jews) want peace. If the extremist Hamas group were removed and a more democratic style of leadership was put in place, would negotiations be possible then? It’s still a big stretch, and it would be difficult for both sides to agree on the land boundaries… but maybe?

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply ↓

    • The impression I am getting is that PT is hinting that his preference to solving the conflict would be for Israel to be dismantled completely.

      “Hence, looking at the MSNBC map, the first slide of its timetable would be the hope by the international community.”

      “First comes Israel being wrongly inside Palestine.

      The WRONG thing to do is throw up our hands (in the West) and keep saying what was done in 1946 is done. No! That is NOT a solution in the least. If anything, that is a horrible cop out.”

      He can correct me if this is a misinterpretation of his position. If this is his position, it seems to me a bit of a nonstarter.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply ↓

      • …it seems to me a bit of a nonstarter.

        CR, that may very well be true, BUT I am approaching this cluster-(f)d*ck purely from an ethical principled standpoint—PLUS, as I’ve already listed here, reparations and ‘land-returns’ have indeed happened in “recent” history. It is by no means unheard of and it can and SHOULD be done if a nation has any self-redeeming decency.

        But I also know that all the major players in MY solution cannot and probably never will ADMIT their massive screw-up in 1946-47 and after, much less have the integrity to rectify what they EFFED UP. Hence, in that light, sure… my solution is a “non-starter” when addressing crimes of Mafia-bosses or drug Cartels—it will never happen! 😄🙄🤦‍♂️ There’s just way too much arrogance and pride in them to do the right thing.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply ↓

        • Alright, but it’s not much of a solution if nobody will enact it in practice. Also notice in all your examples the reparations were cash payments or small territories returned, not entire nation-states giving up their entire territory and more or less dismantling itself. So not exactly comparable.

          The MSNBC map has been criticized and acknowledged as inaccurate:

          I think the only real solution forward is either a two-state solution (where everyone gets something they want and gives up something they want) or a bi-National one-state solution. Both of those have serious issues in implementation as well.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply ↓

          • Yes, I was wondering if you’d challenge that. Unfortunately, that “charge” reflects how very few people—with any sort of attachment to Palestine or Israel—don’t want to seek constructive compromises. Not including you per se in the group CR, but pointing out the pointless intransigency that only leads to more continued slaughter. 😔

            That said, I don’t see how that 2017 report is fair either, especially consulting Mr. Fletcher, of which I had a very difficult time researching his own personal religious affiliation(s) as a reporter/correspondent. Besides, he is one man. That said as well…

            From the Institute for Middle East Understanding, a more unbiased organization that MSNBC’s executives telling their reporters what to say and who to interview:

            Does the map accurately show the loss of Palestinian land since 1946?

            • Yes. The map accurately depicts the land that has been forcibly taken from Palestinians since 1946, two years before Israel was established and the accompanying expulsion of between 750,000 and a million Palestinians to make way for a Jewish state.

            • During and immediately following the state’s creation in 1948, Israel expropriated approximately 4,244,776 acres of Palestinian land. In the process, more than 400 Palestinian cities and towns were systematically destroyed by Israeli forces or repopulated with Jews. Most Palestinian population centers, including homes, businesses, houses of worship, and vibrant urban centers, were demolished to prevent the return of their owners, now refugees outside of Israel’s pre-1967 borders or internally displaced within them. (See here for interactive map of Palestinian population centers destroyed during Israel’s creation.)

            • Israel’s systematic dispossession of Palestinians is ongoing today, both in the occupied territories and inside Israel’s internationally recognized pre-1967 borders, where Palestinian citizens of the state and those living under occupation continue to be pushed out of their homes and off their lands – including entire towns – to make way for Jewish citizens and settlers. Today, there are approximately 650,000 Jewish settlers living illegally on occupied Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israel’s settlement enterprise covers approximately 42% of the West Bank. [1]

            Yes, I know you will compare the dates of the reports, but that begins again to miss the overall point & problem and splitting super fine hairs will not resolve this Israeli-USA caused cluster-f*ck. The international community, the U.N., and the remorseful United States leading the more neutral referendums and serious compromises, mainly from Israel, MUST START immediately. Period.

            And CR, may I ask you a personal question please? And its intended purpose is only to reflect degrees of neutrality (or not) in all of us. I truly mean that Sir. My question:

            Do you have ANY tendencies or background, familial or otherwise, towards the state of Israel or its Zionist origins? In advance, thank you Sir.

            ——————————
            Source:
            https://imeu.org/article/fact-check-msnbcs-palestinian-loss-of-land-map

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply ↓

          • This is very notable regarding WHY MSNBC was made (forced?) to apologize for the (correct & accurate) map above…

            Roberts was born into a Jewish family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the son of Ralph J. Roberts, the founder of Comcast Corporation, and Suzanne (née Fleisher), a former actress and playwright.[1][2] His maternal grandfather, Alfred W. Fleisher, was a real estate investor and philanthropist who supported prison reform. Roberts graduated from Germantown Academy and earned a Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1981, and immediately began working for Comcast.[3]
            — Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_L._Roberts, accessed 10/21/2023

            Does or would this explain why MSNBC had to go public with an apology of the map? Is there a possible conflict of interest with the Chairman/CEO in reporting ‘less than favorable’ news on the state of Israel? Most definitely worth a much closer investigation—a Jewish family/founder and current Chairman/CEO as well as son of Ralph J. Roberts. Hmmm. 🤔

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply ↓

  3. As the owner of the blog that is referenced at the beginning of this post, I want to clarify something. PT writes This position is impossible to defend on principles as well as biblical texts. It was NOT my intention to defend or condemn either side (although the comments that ensued from the post certainly took that turn).

    My primary goal was solely to point out that Israel has been at the center of conflict since the very early days of the Bible. And my secondary goal was to point out that this conflict CONTINUES TODAY and –contrary to modern thinking– its roots ARE religious.

    I certainly understand PT’s desire to be able to expand on his perspectives of what’s happening today — and I think it was wise of him to open his own blog for discussion. 😊

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply ↓

  4. Apologies in advance. I have spent, maybe too long reading histories political, social and military. In doing so there tends to be at times a detachment. There is a constant in all conflicts. Human Flaws.
    This is one of those wars where both sides are simultaneously right and wrong. They both have cases. They both cite histories. They both cite (to suit their own purposes) religion. They both rely on larger political players; the USA being a constant, but do not forget Russia, and of late Iran.
    They are both locked into a cycle of violence and counter violence. They have both fallen under the sway of extremist political groupings. They both have folk all around the world cheering them on like like this was a wrestling match (Sorry if that offends but I have particular views about groups of supporters who only worry about one group’s ‘right’ while others in the world are in torment).
    This is currently intractable. Because both sides can make emotional pleas.
    Those who support one side or another beware of this. The decisions as to where this goes will be taken on the ground by those on the front lines. And they can draw in larger folk against their will.
    For all of us. Beware. This war has a potential to influence or set off other conflicts.
    And finally. this does have old history, of several sorts, so of which did not start where it has ended up.
    (PS: Sorry for the length and grimness of this reply. I’m starting my own series on this subject on my own blog. It must me in a very grave analytical mood)

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply ↓

    • No apologies necessary Roger! All good Sir.

      They both rely on larger political players; the USA being a constant, but do not forget Russia, and of late Iran.

      Yes, I have mentioned exactly this in my comments regarding the separate issue of terrorism & their backers. That’s another ballgame all together.

      Because both sides can make emotional pleas.

      This is why the conflict MUST be removed from emotional (or theological) justifications. That simply has never worked on the global diplomatic forum. And Roger, you are SO RIGHT that “emotional” inspiration gets so many people into hot, irrevocable misfortunes. Yes, BEWARE that this “emotionally based” conflict doesn’t spread throughout the rest of the region and beyond!

      And again Roger, there’s no need to apologize for the length of your comment. That merely reflects how BADLY convoluted the problems have become, and all started by Zionist Israel BACKED BY the USA. I wish you all the best in YOUR blogging on the subject—it is rarely easy and black-or-white, is it not? 😉

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply ↓

      • Thanks for your understanding PT.
        I have just finished listening to an item on the BBC World service involving conversations with an Israeli Mother and a Palestinian Father who have both lost children to violence; they are both members of the Peace Circle Forum a group for parents of both sides who have lost children. The Palestinian Father also has contact with an Israeli Army Veterans group called ‘Combatants Against the Occupation’ (ie Gaza and West Bank). Then you will have heard of Vivian Silver :
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Silver
        If any of our ‘fashionably’* outraged fellow countrymen and women truly care about the situation these are the people they should be supporting, and a quick scroll through Google will find you a number of groups with the same mindsets of Peace & Reconciliation.

        And again I agree with you ‘it is rarely easy and black-or-white’

        *Clarification: I know there are folk out there who have genuine and deeply felt beliefs. However where were all these others:
        1. Voicing concerns over the horror than is taking place in Sudan. In particular Darfur.
        2. I don’t recall having seen any massive demonstrations during the Rohingya genocide.
        3. The Tigray War in Ethiopia was mentioned several times as news item focusing on the losses of civilian life.
        And that’s just three examples for the sake of Brevity.
        You don’t pick and choose your atrocities to demonstrate about

        Liked by 3 people

        Reply ↓

        • If I may … part of the reason there’s not more said/done by the U.S. related to the horrors you list is because they don’t fall into the category/history of the Christian religion. Not so with the Israel/Palestine conflict.

          Liked by 3 people

          Reply ↓

        • Cannot add anymore than you’ve already just listed Roger! Well stated.

          Cherry-picking because it suits your OWN personal, narrow-minded world-views, and benefits yourself will NEVER get you far at all on the world stage of diplomacy, understanding, tolerance (at minimum!), and equal coexistence.

          If you truly believe in human rights and total equality for yourself and your own, you MUST do so for all 8.05-billion other humans too! Period. No debate.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply ↓

          • ‘Period. No debate’
            Quite so PT. Well said.
            One predictable facet those who don’t like this being pointed out, is that they start whinning that you are using ‘Whataboutism’. Which they claim is an unfair tactic.
            Their idea being ‘How dare you distract from my pet cause’
            It’s a bit like those who cite ‘passive aggressive’ when actually they are annoyed that you are not yelling back but being polite and reasonable in the discourse. Or ‘being defensive’ when they didn’t expect you to give as good as you got when they made an offensive remark.
            The narrow minded have a whole toy-box to fall back on.
            Meanwhile millions of of those 8.05 billon’s suffering go unnoticed.

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply ↓

            • Don’t worry PT your behaviour / words are quite restrained for this topic and the greater subject of world-wide violence against vulnerable communities.
              It is right to focus on this current increase in violence in an ongoing war for its other ‘powers’ potentiality to get involved. It should also be used for a comparison to understand this is happening elsewhere and is equally as horrid.
              On a global scale you, I and others of our ilk are small folk on a global scale. But we still can do
              What we can
              When we can
              As best we can
              To help, some folk, somewhere, somehow.🙏

              Liked by 2 people

          • The problem is of course if you had to occupy your time with every human rights abuse you would soon go round the bend.
            The Israeli/ Hamas conflict has strategic as well as ethical and cultural significance beyond many other conflicts.
            Jews don’t want to rule the world .
            Islamic Jihadists?
            Well, now, that’s a whole new ball game, and these nutjobs are quite happy, it seems, to anhialate every Jew everywhere.
            And for them, Israel is the best place to start.
            And there are oodles of Palestinians who would be happy to see the back of Hamas and every other Muslim whack job, and just bet back to living ordinary lives with their family, kids and friends.

            So f**k Hamas.
            They have demonstrated no intention of wanting peace.

            Liked by 1 person

            Reply ↓

            • However, on a bigger scale, birds-eye view…

              Based on deep research, this at times pugnacious book empathetically presents the Zionist and Palestinian positions from their respective viewpoints, while at the same time acknowledging the political realities behind American decision-making that often disregarded Palestinian needs. As Judis observes (p. 251), due to the Balfour Declaration, “The British and the Zionists had conspired to screw the Arabs out of a country that by the prevailing standards of self-determination should have been theirs.” He is, however, detached enough to know that whatever the era, contemporary policy decisions override past events. This book is as good a contribution as we have to understanding both the periods Judis has studied, and their significance for the era in which we find ourselves today.
              — Charles D. Smith, Genesis: Truman, American Jews, and the Origins of the Arab/Israeli Conflict by John B. Judis, 2014.

              Liked by 1 person

  5. And while all this is going on don’t forget that one of those ‘UN Security Council Superpowers’ who must stamp their foot down over this issue is still bombing the shit out of the civilians of Ukraine.
    My thoughts on this mean little, I am not as well educated as most of your commentators on the history of the area. I remember the wife’s grandfather telling us he was posted to Palestine after the war (second) and ordered to stop the Jews coming ashore. A section of those Jews started shooting the Brits from one direction while the Palestinians took a pop from the other, no wonder those soldiers were glad to get pulled out!
    As Ark alludes to (I think) is while there are Islamic terrorist groups there will never be a solution and it’s not just Jews they want to destroy, this week alone 2 Swedes in Belgium for a football match, honeymooners in Uganda and a French teacher.
    Hope I’m wrong but I have a feeling this time Israel is going to go into Gaza and attempt to wipe out every member of Hamas (quite how they know who’s who I have no idea and they probably won’t care). What reaction this action will generate could go one of two ways but will probably end up in war on many fronts.
    And don’t forget Ukraine.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply ↓

    • I have a feeling that most Palestinians just want an end to this crap and do their own thing
      But let’s remember this is not what Hamas wants.
      And it is also worth reminding ourselves that there is ( to my knowledge) not a single truly democratic Arab country.
      Women are little more than property, gays are murdered and/ or thrown in jail.
      Free speech is a pipe dream.
      Tell a Jewish joke, everyone laughs, including Jews in many cases.
      Tell a Muslim joke, and hundreds of people are ready to burn down the neighbourhood.
      Or murder the journalists for publishing the joke.
      Spit on/ desecrate the bible people think you’re odd.
      Desecrate the Qu’ran you better be prepared for a Fatwah and maybe hide for the rest of your life.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply ↓

      • Good sense of humour is not essential on a fundamentalists cv.
        If the lands outlined by Prof were returned to the Palestinians would this solve the problem? I very much doubt it.
        There seems to be many factions inside the world of Islam, they don’t all sing from the same hymn sheet. Bombing each other’s mosques is par for the course in Iraq for instance.
        Take away the Jews from the area and will Hamas et all be happy? Not for long as they still see the west as evil and a legitimate target. You or I could easily be going about our business and become the next victims.
        I’m afraid this a situation with no cure and one we will have to live with.

        Liked by 4 people

        Reply ↓

  6. I’d like to share a portion of a comment made by someone visiting my blog on this topic. So many are up-in-arms about who’s to blame and -Good Grief!- what are we going to DO about it. This person wrote:

    I continue to argue that the average Israeli or the average Palestinian remains more interested in playing with their kids, watching the football, and having family and friends around for a BBQ ….

    This is where so many of the “big shots” fail. All they are capable of focusing on is retribution to the guilty party. But no one can come to terms with exactly who that is.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply ↓

  7. Though this is indeed ONE side of the conflict and therefore valid in that sense, it still falls short of the exhaustive, entire picture for anyone who is strictly neutral with no ties whatsoever to either Israel or Palestine nor their ideologies and theologies.

    Tildeb, I would greatly appreciate it if you helped me show all the non-Israeli perspectives as well! Can you do that out of fairness? 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply ↓

  8. As I’ve already stated numerous times here, Hamas and other terrorist groups on both sides… are a different arena and U.N. problem. This post and all the precipitating posts that started mine is from my perspective…

    about factual, verifiable “recent” history.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply ↓

    • Your comment, reply, attack, Tildeb has been removed because it was a personal attack on me, NOT based on the unbiased facts I and the world have provided here. Please take your personal propaganda elsewhere. Thank you.

      Furthermore, you never answered my direct question to you about being fair & unbiased about this conflict. You greatly disappoint me again. Please move on with your gibberish. Thank you.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply ↓

  9. Just for the record if I like your post it means I have read it, you have been seen.
    Professor as much as we would like, we are powerless to change the past and the future is blank. This problem must be fixed here in the present. In the discussion something is overlooked, something overlooked even in the most personal of relationships. No apology, no offer of forgiveness will work or be valued unless the party offered wants an apology or feels reason to be forgiven. WWI was the lesson we should have learned. WWII deluded us to hubris. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan revealed the truth. America is not a white knight but a Alonso Quijano tilting at windmills with dreams of grandeur. It is a mistake to believe we caused this mess or that we will have a real role in solving it. From what I know of men this will be solved when all concerned get tired of killing each other’s’ children. And as much as I would like to blame the merchants of death for prolonging it the Palestine is full of stones.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply ↓

    • It is a mistake to believe we caused this mess or that we will have a real role in solving it.

      We were not the sole cause, but a contributing factor. THIS is undeniable because of our naïve, gullible Evangelical-Fundamentalist Protestants here. And as such, we CAN absolutely be a contributing solution to the cluster-f*ck we helped caused.

      But if we disagree in that source, that cause, it’s fine. I’ve seen enough of your comments to know we agree on SO MUCH more that I can overlook your mistake. 😉 hehe

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply ↓

      • If I have ever learned anything it was a mistake. 😉 There were three men at Yalta. He might have been focused on eating Europe but his country was a principle participant in the return on the Jews to Palestine. The Truth is easily hidden in Art. Fiddler on the Roof. 35000 Russian Jews moved between 1904 and 1914. Hitler did his part. His encouragement of the Zionist Youth Aliyah moved thousands of Jewish youth to Palestine in 1933. The USA was busy with racism and anti Catholic and Jew hate to have much to do with Palestine at this stage. IMO there is nor was an evil plan. There was no plan and the winning powers at the end of a brutal war in which they did little to prevent mass slaughter of Jews took an opportunity opened by the Ottomans to divert the diaspora of war from their homelands. No one cared what the Palestinians thought then and no one in power really cares now. We are deeply complicite but we contributed little but money to the causation. I smiled at the idea we bring Xi from China to this chefs kiss kitchen. As I said “when they tire of killing each other’s children”.

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply ↓

    • Ryinger,

      Thank you for taking the time to read my post. One thing I wanted to point out is topics like this are rife with bias.

      As a librarian I teach bias as part of a larger unit in evaluating the quality of sources to use for research. Some clear signs of bias:

      1) is it one-sided argument or presentation. Is it obvious they are taking a side?

      2) does it fairly represent other people’s perspectives when it does include opposing perspectives

      3) is it full of loaded language (negative or positive). X is evil or bad or barbaric. X is the most amazing thing, etc.

      4) is it mostly opinion

      5) is the goal of the source to educate/inform or persuade/convince.

      6) does the writer have a conflict of interest

      Since this seemed to be an ongoing issue in the comments with PT accusing others of their bias I’ll let you decide how he did in his OP and follow-up comments.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply ↓

      • Clearly CR, you know me intimately all too well, as Tildeb clearly does not. 😉 But we are all judged by one position, the opposing position, and the Monday morning newspaper’s position… and of course as history judges us. The same applies to Zionist Judaism. And fyi, I am a Free-thinking Humanist not bias to ANY religion in the world, but merely as a neutral human being.

        (please notice my satirical sarcasm in my first sentence, ty.)

        P.S. for ConsoledReader — you never answered my direct question to you about your biases or conflict-of-interests, if you will. Are you in any way or degree biased or have personal leanings toward any denomination of Judaism or even Zionist Judaism; i.e. a conflict-of-interest? Do you have family members here or in Israel connected in any way to Judaism or Zionist Judaism causing unfair biasness? It’s a fair, polite question I asked you weeks ago. Thank you Sir.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply ↓

      • A bias call requires judgement. I would not equate a point of view with bias. The scientific study of biology is a minefield of bias. 😒 But my cabinet making apprenticeship taught me that square is not as important as the factory edge in production. Systematic error is a poor reason not to proceed.

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply ↓

          • When lost in the forest it behoves a person to recognise a tree. A rough carpenter is give a 1/4 inch +/-, a cabinet maker an 1/8, a drawer-maker a 1/1000th.
            Our drawer maker was a one armed Hungarian Zsolt. Every morning every apprentice would meet with Zsolt and compare measuring tapes. Every tape in the shop measured by Zsolt. Every solution to every problem must begin at some point at which we must agree. Doesn’t matter how big is the king’s foot as long as we agree it is the king’s foot.

            Like

            Reply ↓

            • I love it! That is an excellent analogy ryinger77. 😁

              As much as I personally do not like irritating or enraging what I consider very wise, well-educated, overall POLITE Jewish gentlemen on this subject, I can NEVER sacrifice my own integrity, my own dignity, my own principles as an Independent Free-thinking Humanist and view-points about this horrible conflict… for the sake of their approvals or agreements or their ill-founded positions they defend against the suffering Palestinians the last 76-years!!! I cannot budge from this justified position I have. Period.

              Wrong is wrong. Accept it, take ownership of your wrong, then work one’s ASS OFF to rectify it with the help of neutrals, like myself!

              Liked by 2 people

        • The criteria I presented can be applied to pretty much any topic. Our host likes people to present their CV and background. So I gave him my background as a librarian who has a masters degree in library science who has taught this exact topic for years. So I thought I would share my perspective on what I was seeing as someone with some level of expertise in this area.

          All sources have some form of bias. Likewise, we all have some level of bias as individuals. The question is how much the different elements of bias distort the accuracy, presentation, and selection of what you’re reading. I agree that simply having a point-of-view doesn’t make something bias, but certainly starts moving in that direction.

          Our host keeps asking if I have family in Israel or identify as a Zionist, which I do not. However, conflict of interest based in advocating on behalf of an organization and company that can profit or endorses a very obvious partial point-of-view or where money is involved let’s say like the tobacco company sponsoring a study on whether smoking is healthy or not is very different than a scholar who works for a recognized university or generally neutral organization who happens to be Jewish or Christian or Muslim. Of course, these things might lead to a biased perspective—however not necessarily—and it requires a much a stronger burden of proof to demonstrate the bias.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply ↓

          • The Prussian in me makes me obtuse but luckily my Irish part is open to joining even a private fight. I don’t find being accused of bias as insulting. Of course I’m biased as anyone deeply immersed in a religious upbringing should be, own it, move on. Catholic. How deep? I dug the grave and buried my friend and pastor. You and I believe the hate burns to hot still for a solution in the near future. The Professor has encouraged me to believe there is a way to put the fire out. I really hope that it is the Prof who is correct. That any solution is preferable to the present.

            Liked by 2 people

            Reply ↓

          • Thank you CR for partially answering my annoying ‘incessant’ questions to you directly. 😄 BUT…

            you did not answer what your own PERSONAL beliefs are, e.g. are you Buddhist, Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, any form of Judaism yourself, or Agnostic, Atheist, Deist, Theist, Secularist, etc, etc. Why the reluctance to just divulge EXACTLY what you personally believe? That puzzles me. As you yourself correctly stated, PERSONAL beliefs/faith will and do cause biasness. So…

            will you please divulge what your own personal beliefs, faith, world-view is currently. Thank you sir. 🙂

            …and it requires a much a stronger burden of proof to demonstrate the bias.

            Yes, which is done comprehensively all throughout my entire blog and all 435 posts, as well as several pages, all do quite sufficiently. It is really just a question of how much reading my viewers do (or don’t do) themselves. 😉

            Nevertheless, ty for your personal viewpoints here and feedback. It all hopefully makes viewers and followers THINK a lot more than usual, which is all I want to accomplish, whether anyone thinks I’m right or wrong, in the end that doesn’t matter—at least THEY will think further and more broadly outside of their own tiny perspective.

            Like

            Reply ↓

  10. Thank you for sharing this post. I’m so glad you pointed out the facts. Accountability plus reparation is key to some kind of resolution. One can’t argue with historical facts, though God knows people keep trying. I agree with you wholeheartedly, also as a free-thinking humanist, and believe that the Palestinians must be given back that which was stolen. Though I can’t fathom how in any foreseeable future. Reparation seems impossible after genocide. Possibly after a millennia, when new generations are willing to get on with their neighbours. Expect Palestine’s new generation has been wiped out… 💔

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply ↓

    • Sunra Rainz, thank you so much for your kind words and comment. ❤️ And so wonderful to have a fellow Free-thinking Humanist join our WordPress community and my blog here! 🙏

      I see we are indeed in total agreement about this Zionist Israeli-Hamas conflict. THIS I do know, however… nothing will be a long-term solution UNLESS Zionist Israel along with the U.S. government and people realize we and Israel have always been the problematic piece of the bloodshedding-puzzle, since 1947. We BOTH must be held accountable for our illegal, heinous behavior upon the Palestinian people. Period. Until we and Israel do that, and do it honorably and equitably, this conflict will never end because the Palestinian people have EVERY RIGHT to protect their homelands and families, including their small children.

      By the way Sunra, I go into a ton of detail, historical facts, and research about the roots of Zionist Judaism from their early 19th-century Eastern European origins, thru WW1 and WW2 and how they heavily influenced prominent American federal politicians and SCOTUS justices. It’s a 3-part series. Here’s the link to Part 1 and the other two parts:

      The Circus of Recycling – Part I

      Thanks again Sunra, and welcome! I look forward to our blogging connections! 😍

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply ↓

Go Ahead, Start the Discussion!