Paul, Acts, Forgeries & Marcion – Part I

My good friend Ark (Egyptian Akhenaten) over at A Tale Unfolds has recently gotten into a lengthy discussion/debate with an American(?) pastor about the tale of the Christian resurrection and the reliability or unreliability of the Greek New Testament. He, myself, and many other secularists, atheists, and humanists of our WordPress community have been in these debates with evangelicals, fundamentalists, or otherwise hyper-conservative religious faith-followers an untold amount of times over many years, or at least over a decade, probably more. We are all very experienced, well-informed, well-educated, and quite reasonable in our non-religious views and/or secularism. All of us pop holes in their weak apologetics everywhere and with lethal precision.

The oldest extant New Testament, Codex Sinaiticus that ends at Mark 16:8, with no resurrection story whatsoever. It was written by four different Greek scribes.

When we indulge these Faith-followersTM almost all those times the ending is boringly predictable: They believe merely because their own personal, imagined, paranormal construct makes them feel good inside. Period. They fail miserably every time they try to defend their individual fabricated mental construct because they can never produce any degree of convincing evidence that their “God,” their “Savior,” or their “Holy Scriptures” existed or are universally reliable and unanimous. Yet they keep coming around like a never-ending three-ring circus.

But enough rambling, let’s get on with the subject at hand.

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The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?

We immediately run into a major problem asking this question before even reaching the starting-line or into the starting stalls. What is it? The severe lack of any independent sources for the resurrection tale. Or to say it another way sources that are not strictly Hellenic-Greco-Roman manuscripts, i.e. the earliest extant 4th-century CE Greek-based New Testament called the Codex Sinaiticus (above image). But this surviving vellum parchment is a manuscript copy of over 292–322 some years later than the events, persons, and concepts they purport to convey and narrate. How much personal bias, editing, changing, and omitting could take place by ancient copyists and scribes overseen and supervised by early archbishops and church fathers over a span of two centuries? A lot. That was a rhetorical question.

Major Problem #2: Confusion among all Christian apologists concerning whether the resurrection story was a non-material event, i.e. a different body, an immaterial body, and thus not in history or time and space. Or if the resurrection was material, the same body, a material body, i.e. in history as a chronological time and space event. The latter belief is held by virtually all Christian apologists and faith-followers today.

These two Christian postures are important because a non-material body does not require an empty tomb nor a body in the flesh, a tactic that avoids all the problematic Gospel and New Testament contradictions and confusion. In other words, the resurrection was an act by God within His dimensions, power, and omnipresence. With a material body it does require an empty tomb and a literal body in the flesh, a far, far harder defense of the resurrection.

Late Second Temple Jewish Ossuaries with bones of two noblemen – photo Gali Tibbon / AFP / Getty Images

Major Problem #3.0 and #3.1: Miracles. Did they exist then? Do they exist today? With a material body defense Christians must debate whether or not miracles, or a creator God, events, and people can bend or subvert the commonly accepted laws of nature, physics, chemistry, Quantum Mechanics, et al, to explain the testimony of very biased sources: the Greek Gospels. However, this debate then presents another subproblem of this major problem: background probability. What is meant by background probability of a claim or testimony?

Jeffrey J. Lowder, co-founder of Internet Infidels and researcher in Philosophy of Religion, Metaethics, and Inductive Logic, is one great scholar to explain “background probability of testimony”:

— Jeffrey j. lowder, the historicity of jesus’ resurrection, accessed march 10, 2024

What is “background probability” (B-P) to a resurrection believer and what is it to a secularist, atheist, or agnostic?

B-P to a Non-Believer: Lets suppose God does exist. If God does exist, then to a believer’s or theist’s world-view and perception, at least to themselves, they can plausibly argue that the “background probability” is improved, if not greatly improved. An all-powerful Creator who designed the laws of nature and the universe could certainly intervene and awestruck us with abnormalities of which we are unfamiliar. And if a God could do that, then it follows that a mere resurrection and levitation of a man is completely within His powers.

Furthermore, a believer and other theists have the doctrine of Special Revelation. From my extensive blog-page Why Christianity Will Always Fail:

Humans can believe to themselves and make-believe to themselves anything they want with very few limits, including the existence of a God. However, not all humans align with this train of thought. Hence, because of widespread disbelief in a deity or deities, it makes sense that this God or gods would intervene in human history revealing His plan, His nature, and His purpose for life on Earth. Richard Swinburne of Oxford University England argues “miracles might be especially useful for the purpose of authenticating a divine messenger or prophet.”

The two reasons above—the existence of God/Gods and Special Revelation—believers can conceivably argue that if God/Gods exist, then the probability of the resurrection improves despite the severe lack of independent sources. Another point to consider in this miracles-paradigm is should a theist/believer reject the resurrection, they must seek out the historical sources and context to do so. A very intriguing position for the believer.

For a non-believer, or secularist, or atheist, “background probability” for the resurrection is as ludicrous as pigs flying and cows on the Moon. Thus, for an event of teleportation of a man executed and dead for supposedly three days and nights, i.e. beyond resuscitation, is simply unrealistic given the known constraints of the human brain and vital organs after 5-minutes and up to 35-minutes for Myocardial ischemia. Plus, such an event would go against all laws of nature. Scottish philosopher, historian, and empiricist David Hume, states “for an atheist to be justified in believing a miracle on the basis of testimony, the possibility that the testimony is false would have to be a greater miracle than if the alleged event actually occurred.” Therefore, the B-P makes a resurrection infinitesimal or impossible to accept for non-believers.

Popular Defenses for the Resurrection

Most lay Christians use the works of two or three apologists to defend the resurrection of Yeshua bar Yosef, or IΔ“sous ChristΓ³s in the Greek. The late Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, and J. Warner Wallace are three of many that faith-followers trust to do their legwork. Of these three apologists I will focus on Dr. Craig because he is generally regarded as one of the best. Also, one of his academic advisors and fellow alum was Norman Geisler.

From his website “Reasonable Faith,” Craig’s defense of the resurrection has three premises: 1) the empty tomb, 2) “appearances” after his execution, and 3) the supposed origin(s) of the Christian faith. Let’s examine these while remembering the severe lack of independent sources about Jesus, i.e. non-Greco-Christian sources.

The Empty Tomb Premise — What diverse evidence is there for the empty tomb? Craig addresses this question with 10-lines of evidence in one of his books. Here, I will only quote two of those lines, what he thinks are most important:

  1. Craig purports “One of the most important facts, I think, undergirding the empty tomb is oddly enough the burial story of Jesus. […]
    In any case, the Jewish authorities certainly could have made an end to the whole affair by simply pointing to the closed tomb of Jesus and said, β€œLook! The grave is occupied, he is not risen from the dead” and that would have been the end of it. Therefore, the accuracy of the burial story, I think, provides powerful grounds for affirming the historicity of the empty tomb account.”
  2. Another aspect of the empty tomb narrative itself, as it is found in the Gospel of Mark, is that this portion of the narrative was probably part of Mark’s early source material that he used for describing the passion and the death of Jesus – the last week of Jesus’ life and his crucifixion. […]
    Also, the empty tomb story is connected to the burial account by syntactical and linguistic ties. For example, the pronouns used in the empty tomb story have their antecedents in the burial story so it is really one smooth account. When you remember that Mark is the earliest of our Gospels, that means that his source material was even older and this passion narrative that included the empty tomb story could have gone back to within the AD 30s even. Remember Jesus was crucified about AD 30 so we are talking about a source that is extremely old and is therefore a valuable source of historical information.”

Craig goes on to explain two or three other lines of resurrection evidence on his website, but nowhere at all does he go outside of the Synoptic Gospels other than a peculiar, very brief mention of the early 2nd century CE Apocryphal Gospel of Peter story, again strictly Greco-Christian sources only. Craig attempts, albeit poorly, to garner pseudo-Judaic sources from Talmudic literature (70–640 CE) and Middle Age polemic Jewish “propaganda,” as he describes it:

William lane craig, from “Resurrection,”
Veritas Forum interviews, the reasonable faith website

I am baffled how Craig came up with this feeble Polemical Jewish conclusion. In the 5th and 6th centuries CE Jews were not the least bit concerned with Greco-Christian myths and tales spread around the Mediterranean. From the JewishEncyclopedia.com:

Jewishencyclopedia.com, polemics with christians and further

It’s safe to say that Craig’s argument for “the empty tomb” is at the most wishful for Christians, and in the least, wholly unconvincing for non-Christians. He actually offers no important pagan evidence as he claims he does.

Jesus’ Appearances Premise — What diverse evidence exists for Jesus’ appearances days after his execution? Craig’s answer from his website:

  1. The primary evidence that we have for Jesus’ post-mortem appearances would come first of all from Paul’s list of witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15. There he says that when Christ rose from the dead he appeared to Cephas (or Peter), then to the twelve disciples, then to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom were still alive at the time of his writing though some had died, then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and then last of all, says Paul, β€œhe appeared also to me.” ”

The implication Craig makes here are six (6) counts of attestation to Jesus being alive days after his execution and burial. They are Peter, the twelve disciples (including Peter again), “500 brethren,” James his brother, all of the apostles, and Paul. None of these six counts of attestation are independent sources or testimony. They are all Judeo-Christians and even Paul, or Saul of Tarsus, is a highly unreliable source as I covered in my five part blog-series Saul the Apostate. And Craig’s final comment about Jesus’ appearances goes:

Notice Craig’s vague and veiled descriptions of “various individuals and groups of people.” It is certainly reasonable to suppose that all these individuals and groups were Judeo-Christians, again barring Paul, who had vested interests or skin in the game that Jesus was not the dead, failed Messiah as thousands of Homeland Jews and Gentiles were asserting at the time according to the Greco-Roman New Testament and later writings of early generation Hellenistic Church Fathers.

Another fact that must be remembered with these above counts of attestation and Craig’s framing of them is that the Gospels were written over 40–110 years after Jesus’ execution, burial, and purported resurrection (see image below). It is quite plausible in a range of degrees that the much later testimonies recorded in the Gospels and Acts were retrofitted by those Greco-Roman scribes and copyists to corroborate Paul’s letters regarding the resurrection. This would also explain the many internal contradictions or inaccuracies of the resurrection in the Greek canon of the New Testament.

Chronological Order of the Greek New Testament Canon

As noted earlier in the first image above, the oldest surviving Gospel copy, the Gospel of Mark, does not have any resurrection story after Jesus’ execution and burial. It ends at Mark 16:8, nothing more, nothing less until later retrojections were made into Mark c. 70-75 CE or later. This is a lethal blow to Christianity’s core doctrine and its apologists.

Hence, Craig’s argument is not proof Jesus rose from the dead. Moreover, there are still no non-Christian sources or pagan sources of the resurrection. In fact, the Jewish doctrine of a resurrection of the dead is not only quite different than Paul’s, the Gospels, and Acts, but is barely even a mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, Isaiah and Daniel to be precise. This fact weakens or undermines early Judeo-Christian testimonies as unrelated.

Therefore, Craig’s argument for the validity of appearance stories is not only his biased six sources cited, but worse, an implied kangaroo court of “witness testimonies.” I think this argument is one of Craig’s weakest and is near laughable.

Origin(s) of the Christian Faith Premise — How did “The Way” Movement, a reforming Jewish sect in 1st century CE Roman-ruled Judaea and Galilee arise? Craig answers this in a long, sporadic rabbit-trail way:

Unfortunately for Craig, by delving into 1st century CE Jewish customs, doctrines, and traditions he shows his amateur knowledge and understanding of Talmudic literature of post-Second Temple Judaism (70–640 CE).

myjewishlearning.com, resurrection of the dead

Thus, from the above elaboration Craig has misrepresented Talmudic traditions and literature as well as wrongly connect them with the Greek New Testament canon. In Peter SchΓ€fer’s book, Jesus in the Talmud, Princeton University Press, 2007, SchΓ€fer argues:

Jesus in the talmud, wikipedia

Obviously William Lane Craig is not Jewish nor is he a scholar in Second Temple Judaism and Messianism. One must look elsewhere to understand the large chasm between his faith and theology and that of Jesus’ reform movement and his sectarian Judaism. He is way off.

Debunking the Resurrection

One of the most renown atheists and critics of Christianity—or as I like to call it, Pauline Christology—is Dan Barker, Co-President of the Freedom From Religion Foundation and minister turned atheist. From his book Losing Faith in Faith, in his chapter Jesus: History or Myth?, he explains in four simple reasons why the resurrection and Jesus are not an actual event or a historical person. I often argue this as well for very similar reasons citing some of the same sources:

  1. There is no external historical confirmation of the New Testament stories. [i.e. non-Greco-Christian sources]
  2. The New Testament stories are internally contradictory.
  3. There are natural explanations for the origin of the Jesus legend.
  4. The miracle reports make the story unhistorical.

Myself, like Barker, always ask Christian faith-followers and apologists, Where is the contemporary pagan, unbiased non-Christian testimonies of Jesus’ life and resurrection? They are silent on this because there is none. As I thoroughly cover on my page entitled Why Christianity Will Always Fail, there is no independent historical sources for Yeshua’s/Jesus’ life or resurrection:

Dan Barker also makes this overwhelming fact. Barker points out this:

dan barker, losing faith in faith, citations in quote above, pp. 362–364

For some event like a human being coming back from days of being dead would certainly interest non-believers, Gentile Romans and anyone inside the Roman-ruled Syro-Palestine and beyond to write about the Jewish sectarian Jesus’/Yeshua’s extraordinary defiance of death. But that never happened. There are no extant records testifying to this miraculous resurrection event. Christians then in the 1st century CE and Christians in the 21st century have no answer. They fabricated them. All one needs to ask these blinded faith-followers,TMWhat exactly, in comprehensive detail, happened over Easter and the day their most crucial theological doctrine was born?” Aside from the many problematic contradictions in Paul’s letters, the four Gospels, and the Book of Acts, once again, they cannot produce any independent pagan evidence to corroborate, even a whole century after purported claims by 1st and 2nd generation Greek Church Fathers. Nothing. Zip. We have a kangaroo court once again.

dan barker, losing faith in faith, p. 376

Dr. Michael Martin formerly of Boston University and alum of Arizona State University (B.S.), University of Arizona (M.A.), and Harvard University (PhD), another acclaimed atheist notes these five serious problems for Christianity’s claim of a historical factual resurrection:

  1. the extent to which the author’s purpose may have influenced his reliability
  2. the consistency or inconsistency of the NT accounts
  3. whether the accounts are based on eyewitness testimony
  4. the known reliability (or unreliability) of the eyewitnesses
  5. the extent to which the event is confirmed by independent testimony

Martin’s five above points blow the Greco-Roman Christian tales of resurrection into mere fanciful myth, not reliable eyewitness testimonies.

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In the next part of Paul, Acts, Forgeries & Marcion I will briefly go into the reliability of and facts hidden in sources about Paul’s/Saul’s letters, then Paul’s third letter to the Corinthians and the forgeries of it in Paul’s name. Some if not much of what I cover with Paul/Saul is previously covered in my 5-part series mentioned earlier, Saul the Apostate if you care to review it as well. Hope all of you can read and join in. Ark/Doug, I hope this series benefits your debate with the Christian pastor. πŸ™‚

The Professor’s Convatorium Β© 2023 by Professor Taboo is licensed under CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 

45 thoughts on “Paul, Acts, Forgeries & Marcion – Part I

  1. I just have to come back at this, but it would be unfair and disrespectful to leap in feet first, scatter-shooting when you have put together a carefully and reasoned case. However… A ‘case for the defense’ is required.

    Now what would be the best agreeable way to do this? Should I wait for Part II first? And then post up my own ‘Case’ On my own site? Or having read Part II, post up my own case as a reply on your Part II. I place myself at your disposal

    (Advanced declaration: Although a firm believer in God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit I am probably considered a heretic, or worst (gasp) a Relativist in some quarters (hey if other folk want to seek a Divine Being another way, that’s up to them, just be nice with others). I also like to mix History, Theology, Cosmology, Politics, Quantum Theory and Spirituality in this field, but do try to ensure there is a valid basis for the point I am trying to make.

    PS: Seeing as how it is Lent I was actually planning on putting up a post on the basis for my Faith, and suddenly PT you’ve turned up with this. Couldn’t be better. Synchronicity anyone?

    Seriously, respectfully yours,
    Roger.

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    • First off, this wasn’t intended for the few kind, respectful Believers (or Aston Villans for that matter πŸ˜‰ ) like yourself Roger. I can throw in Arnold into that “nice” group as well. But this blog-series was specifically for Ark’s benefit and in general the crazy, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists we have here in the States and some scattered about the world who come onto our WordPress blogs to duke-it-out with us in less than stoic ways, sometimes even audaciously rude. This blog-series is for those Faith-followers™ and rambunctious Believers.

      In all honesty I’m glad you shared your thoughts and feedback Roger. I don’t mind discussing this subject with you. You’ve never gone after my own world-view, education, and experience in this matter. This I greatly appreciate with you. πŸ™‚

      A β€˜case for the defense’ is required.

      I’m unsure what you mean here. However, if you are not satisfied with my William Lane Craig presentation/defense, then you my Friend are more than welcome to expand upon it or give your own. If your own is far too lengthy for my comments-section, then yes, your blog is best for it.

      Hah! Synchronicity indeed! πŸ˜„ Maybe even Quantum Entanglement? πŸ€“πŸ€­

      Liked by 1 person

      • Hi PT.
        Sorry for the delay – WP hid your reply until this UK mornings 8.00 am (UK GMT).

        Firstly Villa after their abysmal display against Spurs on home ground have been downgraded in this house to ‘That team’. 😠We are requiring at least two wins and a draw to have their name re-instated.

        Anyway….

        After I replied to you my fingers started twitching and the start of a draft outline was being tapped out, as a foundation to work on. This may well turn out to be a post, but a post which urges readers to read your own posts so they be alert to another viewpoint.

        On reflection, I should have used the phrase ‘Another perspective can be included.’

        Far from being anything negative I was rather excited in a good way, as this presented an opportunity to explain what is one of the ‘Scientific + Christianity’ approaches and also to indulge one of my strolls through History and the Historical Evidence aspects, and not dissatisfied but eager to explain how one believer sees the whole subject.

        Just to elaborate (as Jill knows) I am able to turn by condemnation and general dissatisfaction on ‘my side’ with great enthusiasm. In religion I use the words ‘heretics’ ‘blasphemers’ and ‘hypocrites’ quite freely. In particular when it comes to these folk who have in their hysteria deluded themselves into believing there is something spiritual in Trump.

        (In UK Left-Wing politics – my supposed political home turf, condemnation of other left-wing groups can be quite Soviet-esque from a Cold War era). Whereas as long as the arguments and viewpoints from the ‘Opposite’ side are delivered in a rational, well presented and mature manner I am at ease to discuss them.

        Therefore PT have no fear I am not offended, nor upset…fascinated and interested are the words. Thus I await Pt II with much anticipation before replying.

        In conclusion, how interesting you should mention Quantum Entanglement….because…Oh well, that will be a facet to be considered in my response.

        Keep up the good work.πŸ‘

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Spot on Mister D

    However, you already know the evangelical response, yes?

    Pastor Waits is convinced of the gospels reliability, thus independent evidence or not, he considers the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth to be historical fact.

    Case closed… Why are you still going on about it Ark?

    I recently came across an excellent YouTube featuring former evangelical Dr. Joshua Bowen. He has a Phd in ancient Assyrian and is clued up on all related matter. He attended seminary and understands apologetics and their proponents as you do.

    He uses a wonderful analogy about a husband coming home late from work who explains there is a big project on the go. As a trusting wife, she has no reason to doubt. A few days later he comes home smelling of perfume. He explains there is a woman who douses herself every day and everyone goes home smelling like this. Having accepted the first premise, she accepts the second explanation.

    Seems plausible, right?

    Soon after, he arrives home with a smear of lipstick on his collar. He explains that his mother popped into the office on her way home from work to bring him a coffee and kissed him goodbye. The following week her best friend tells her that her husband is having an affair, how is she so blind? The wife responds that her friend is just jealous and wants to steal her husband and is having none of it!

    Like the myriad problems with the Bible, on their own, each can and is explained by apologists and generally accepted by believers. However, seen all together these things are pretty much impossible to explain rationally. He asserts this is usually how apologists ply their trade. You’ve accepted the explanation of the first problem, now let’s move along, nothing to see.

    He explained that his deconversion was along the lines of how Ehrman deconverted.

    By the way, I am a fan of Barker. His story is one I enjoy listening to more than many others.

    Liked by 1 person

      • I too thought the interview was enough.

        I would like to read his books, but I expect that at their root, they contain nothing new that I haven’t heard, watched or read by other former Christians.

        There are surely only so many ways to boil an egg, right?

        Liked by 1 person

            • At the quarter-way point Schweitzer has critiqued a bunch of 19th century German writers who mostly reject bible history and miracles. Surrounded with scholarly competitiveness and nitpicking.
              I’m kinda thick at reading theological stuff but spex I’ll make it all the way through. 684 pages for 99 cents on Amazon ebooks.

              Liked by 1 person

            • Update. According to Schweitzer, the German theologian Bruno Bauer irately criticized the gospel(s) of Christ into oblivion- analyzed him to death (if I may). And then 10 years later in his, Criticism of the Pauline Epistles, Bauer further determined there was no historical Jesus. However, Schweitzer also noted Bauer’s inability to explain the origin of Christianity.

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        • There are surely only so many ways to boil an egg, right?

          Excellent point there Ark! I’ve often tried to explain to lay Christians, Faith-followers™, and some Apologists in the Deep South like your Mr. Waits, that once Athanasius of Alexandria convinced Roman Emperor Constantine I (with his supreme authority) and persuaded other Greek Church Fathers in c. 330–367 CE what the final New Testament Canon would consist of… (see image below), that was it. Stick a fork in it, it’s all done!

          Yes Ark, there are only so may ways to boil an egg, or boil a NT book, epistle, etc, as the six previous Early Church Fathers did prior to Athanasius, eh? 😈🀭

          Liked by 1 person

          • I find it rather amusing that Revelation found it’s way into the Canon, and this is what many Christians assert is the blueprint for how it will all be hunky dory when the Lake Tiberius Pedestrian returns. I mean, to accept the hallucinogenic rambling of someone supposedly forced into exile on Patmos by Domitian? Oh, and this is after being boiled in oil like a giant human chip (French fry).

            This is almost as big a fantasy as asserting Arsenal will win the league this year.

            🀦

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    • I really like that Bowen analogy! Ahh, yes. That Law Firm called “Murphy’s Law & Hunches Firm” rears its nasty head in a different way in this case. Why don’t the general educated public, particularly here in the U.S., understand the meaning and dynamics of Circumstantial Evidence? It isn’t difficult; a 6th-grader can learn it and understand it. Here’s a handy image below on what Bowen is referring/implying and the difference between what is direct evidence (fact) vs what is circumstantial (inferred, but not fact)…

      Glad you’re a fan of Dan Barker. I’ll have to checkout Dr. Joshua Bowen. Thanks for that mention Sir. πŸ‘

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hahaha! πŸ˜„ I will assume you are serious with this compliment Arnold? If so, thank you kindly.

      If not, then THAT was funny because I know well how pedantic and a tiny bit long-winded I can get when on a subject I’m passionate about. πŸ€“πŸ˜‰

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          • Prof, I’m confused; in this paragraph is, “reject the resurrection” a typo?

            “The two reasons aboveβ€”the existence of God/Gods andΒ Special Revelationβ€”believers can conceivably argue that if God/Gods exist, then the probability of the resurrection improves despite the severe lack ofΒ independentΒ sources. Another point to consider in this miracles-paradigm is should a theist/believer reject the resurrection, they must seek out the historical sources and context to do so. A very intriguing position for the believer.”

            While I believe you make an excellent case for the unreliability of Christianity, I’m not an apologist. I take life from the top down- that is, that God is, and is most interested in all things humanity. Therefore I assume God wants a receptive relationship, a romance even, and am testing so in everyday life’s circumstances, ponderings and consequences. And I believe the man Jesus Christ is the catalyst.

            Liked by 1 person

            • Arnold,

              No it is not a typo or wrong grammatical structure. What myself and Jeffrey Lowder are pointing out logically, or from a mechanism of Cause & Effect in logic, is that if one believes/perceives in a paradigm of miracles, God(s)—i.e. events, deities, or persons able to effect or bend the laws of nature and the Universe—but they reject the resurrection or teleportation, then the next logical step for the theist is to prove or provide compelling evidence the resurrection DIDN’T happen. They are responsible for demonstrating through the exhaustive historical context and sources that it didn’t happen.

              Make sense? πŸ™‚

              Also, with your last paragraph, please keep the personal preaching or personal invites, though somewhat implied/veiled, to your God and the Greco-Roman Christos absent. I will allow this last paragraph to remain out of respect for your civil, polite discourse with me in the past. But I’d rather your comments focus solely on the content of the blog-series and not your personal beliefs. Thank you. 😊

              Liked by 1 person

  3. Trump’s cultists don’t care that Trump is lying, even in the face of reams of proof — the presidency was stolen from him in 2020. That was just four years ago.

    Despite all your (and all the other refutations of the origins of Christianity) you and no one else will stop people believing in what they want to believe. All this happened 2000 or so years ago. The problem as I see it is that by trying to refute (give facts) the irrefutable (change belief) keeps the topics/subjects centre stage. So why bother?

    In both instances (probably in 2000 years, Trump will be a religious figure) it does not matter what anyone says or does not say. Belief is not based on fact. Let it go. Stop making Trump the man in the spotlight, and quit trying to put a spotlight on the inaccuracies of belief. You have better things to do with your time! Believers take strength in having you pay them so much attention.

    Remove the spotlights. You are only helping perpetuate the myths.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I definitely agree with you, rawgod, about believers enjoying being put in the attention spotlight. For them, it’s simply validation that the “devil” is working against them to promote his endgame.

      And while the Professor is extremely knowledgeable and has the “facts” to back up what he writes, the average believer could care less. And most Christian leaders are in their positions, not because of dedicated research into the history of Christianity, but because “God called them.”

      However, having said this, I do acknowledge PT’s superior knowledge of Christian history.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Certainly, he spent a lot of time on this “over the years” it sounds like, Nan. But I cannot find it in me to dedicate my life to negate the beliefs of others who couldn’t care less what the truth might be, and thus the comparison to Trump and his ilk worms. Trump couldn’t care less about Christianity, but he knows how to use it as a tool. He is the ultimate Heretic, and he could be raised to sainthood or higher because people believe he believes. What a crock!

        So how’s things with you these days?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Thank you kindly Nan. ❣️

        If nothing else, at least the path I chose in college/university in 1983 as a prior Agnostic like my father as a teenager, and then chose to genuinely do what this passage invites a true seeker to do:

        Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
        Matthew 7:7-8 (NASB 1995)

        Was not all totally in vain. It enabled me to now do what I like to debunk the Abrahamic religions for what they truly are: fairy-tales, myths, and Greek legends.

        So later after genuinely asking then and thereafter (Matt 7:7-8), seeking then and thereafter (Ibid), knocking then and thereafter (Ibid) for the following 12-years while completing my under-grad in History, Bible, and Philosophy, then entering/studying at seminary 3.5 years (RTS in Jackson, MS), doing missionary trips both domestically and 3 abroad, and on staff as Co-Director of our church’s Singles Ministry for two years. All of that Nan while making perfectly sure I was also abiding by “faith AND works” fully and with humble earnestness. All that is spelled out in the entire Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament canon. πŸŽ–οΈπŸ†

        Unfortunately, by 1994-95 God did a table cloth yank/jerk off the filled table trick and pulled the rug out from under my feet! 😳 And it was indeed the Yahweh/God and “Christ” of the “Holy Bible.”

        He absent mindedly left out of His “inerrant” Bible 17-missing critical years of His Son’s life! WTH? And that for me was Pandora’s Box and the eventual collapse of His house of cards. I was totally duped and so was every single Christian on the planet. πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈ Oh well, you live and learn, right?

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    • All good/great points rawgod. They do indeed need consideration, on my part and all the other more educated and experienced, more advanced and evolved Homo sapiens like yourself, me, Ark and so on. πŸ™‚

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  4. Re “They believe merely because their own personal, imagined, paranormal construct makes them feel good inside.” Actually they may be quite miserable inside (their religion is a total downer) but if you were to claim this instead: They believe merely because their own personal, imagined, paranormal construct makes them feel special inside. Their misery is worth it to feel special. Remember they are saved, we are not.

    In the law if the prosecution has a circumstantial case against your client, one possible defense is to provide an alternative scenario that is even more probable than theirs. One of my favorites countering the supernatural resurrection of Jesus is the one in which Jesus gets involved with rebels, claims he is the “King of the Jews,” and that gets him crucified by the Romans. (Crucifixion was reserved for enemies of the Roman state and Rome had already ordained a King of the Jews.) So, Jesus’s crime was political, not religious.

    His followers then stole the body from its crypt and invented a resurrection tale to have as a rallying point for those Jesus left behind.

    This is just one of many such scenarios that have been invented over the years, all of which make more sense than the supernatural one in the NT.

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    • …claim this instead: They believe merely because their own personal, imagined, paranormal construct makes them feel special inside.

      Ah, I like that Steve. Great feedback. Thank you Sir. πŸ‘

      And your alternative “circumstantial evidence” case is also a very great point. Although when I remove the emotional or miraculous aspects from the Gospel stories, Acts, and Paul’s epistles when debating with Faith-followers™ and apologists… frequently they respond with more emotional (spiritual?) non-sense. IOW’s, it is their illogical or cognitive dissonance in their emotions or passion for THEIR OWN personal construct of Jesus/God that paralyzes any ability to listen acutely to the logic, evidence, and therefore proof that the resurrection and miracles are NOT possible in reality, on Earth, and within the Cosmos/Universe. In time, perpetually that is, this/these fact(s) will eventually manifest and become commonly accepted, irrefutable laws.

      The human brain and its vital organs are a remarkable mechanism capable of almost limitless abilities, yet so very imperfect and flawed due to high degrees of emotion and mental fantasies to inject more serotonin, endorphins, dopamine, and oxytocin to their brains and bodies. And like an addict, many humans will do ANYTHING to get them flowing. πŸ™„

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      • Remember, their commitment is emotional, not rational. They were told they had to accept Jesus in their hearts . . . not their brains. So, we keep putting forth rational counter arguments to their emotional ones and make little way with them. Luckily we are making headway with those not already indoctrinated.

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  5. Jesus wasn’t the only god who died & resurrected. There was: Osiris, Adonis, Dionysus, Krishna, Mithra, Attis, Odin, Tammuz, Baal, all of whose stories definitely influenced the Jesus story. (there are New World gods who similarly died & resurrected, notably Quetzacoatl, but that they have no baring on the Jesus story). 

    I have never understood why Christians insist on the factual reality of the Jesus story, when it’s so easily disproved. Maybe that’s why ~ it’s so easily disproved. But the fact is, when you are considering religious/spiritual values, factual reality is totally unnecessary. It’s the message of the god or goddess or prophet that matters; not that these persons really existed. & the story counts. It’s a good story, which is why it’s lasted through so many gods & so many thousands of years. 

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    • Excellent feedback and points SAQ. And your last paragraph is superb. Indeed, great stories have lasted even far longer than the Jesus legend. Perfect example: the Greek Iliad and Odyssey. πŸ˜‰

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    • I too am thoroughly enjoying Halo season 2. Very happy I stumbled across the series. πŸ˜‰

      Yes, and as Ark has mentioned, he really wants to read my take on Marcion and the earliest church PRIOR to the Greek New Testament canon.

      Thanks for the feedback John.

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  6. Pingback: There’s Nothing Simple Out There (One Christian’s Declarations Concerning Their Faith and the Subject of Evidence. Part I) | Writing Despite Computers and Programmes

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