Jewish or Christian Messiah?

It is the Christmas holidays now and we all know what takes place for the month of December, or actually immediately after Thanksgiving Day. No, check that. I am wrong: Christmas today as it has been for the last 2-3 decades in America now begins at Halloween, or weeks before then. Ugh. 🙄 So I thought this blog-post would be a good reminder to those who willingly choose to not do their historic homework about their own faith and beliefs.

At least once a month I receive Dr. Bart Ehrman’s blog emails on various subjects of Christianity, Jesus or Yeshua, and biblical history, particularly in regard to the four Gospels, Pseudographic, and non-Canonical manuscripts of Late Second Temple Judaism and earliest Christianity. One of his latest blog-posts was entitled, Why Should We Think Jesus Called Himself the Messiah? posted November 10, 2024.

I have always found this question to be of great intrigue and controversy. Why? Because so few modern Christians have an adequate knowledge and understanding of Jewish Late Second Temple Messianism during Jesus’ life, hereafter to be called Yeshua bar Yosef or Yeshua/Yeshuah. And without this Jewish knowledge and understanding there is no possible way modern Christians can truly know who their “Messiah,” their Yeshua actually was and who he thought he was to his fellow Jews and disciples at the time. Who Yeshua was and his role in Yahweh’s or God’s scheme of things in 20-35 CE were far from straightforward. It was all further muddled up and convoluted by the prevalent Hellenistic or Greco-Roman impositions, particularly from Saul of Tarsus, or Paul.

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Dr. Ehrman clearly believes that Yeshua bar Yosef believed himself to be the long awaited Jewish Messiah. However, I am not so convinced. Following are two points Bart Ehrman makes for Yeshua considering himself “the Jewish Messiah”:

The immediate problem I have with Ehrman’s conclusion is that he bases it upon just one literary source: the Greco-Roman Synoptic Gospels of which were copied some 40–78 years after Yeshua’s execution in 31-33 CE. Ehrman does not utilize other very relevant Jewish sources of the same time period! For example, Ehrman makes the common grave mistake of sourcing strictly the Greek Septuagint which eventually passes down to us as the Greco-Roman Old Testament. However, the Greek Septuagint is not the Hebrew Tanakh and Yeshua was clearly Hebrew! There are significant differences. What are some key differences?

Jewish Requirements to be the Messiah

The literal and proper translation of the Hebrew Messiah is “Moshiach – מָשִׁיחַ.” It simply means “anointed” referring to the Jewish Bronze and Iron Age ritual of anointing and consecrating someone or something with oil. In the Hebrew Tanakh (1 Samuel 10:1-2) such as a Jewish king (1 Kings 1:39), Jewish priests (Leviticus 4:3), prophets (Isaiah 61:1), the Jewish Temple and its utensils (Exodus 40:9-11), unleavened bread (Numbers 6:15), and a non-Jewish or Gentile king (Cyrus king of Persia, Isaiah 45:1). However, “Moshiach” is never translated as a Messiah; it is always a verb describing an action or occurrence, it is never a noun. There’s the first major screw-up of the Greco-Romans and the Septuagint.

If Christians are going to lay claim to a Hebrew-Jewish heritage for their Christos, or Yeshua, then it is completely fair that we examine closely what the Hebrew-Jewish literature says about the Messiah, yes? The Hebrew Tanakh makes it explicitly clear what and/or how the “Moshiach” will be completely and correctly fulfilled:

  1. He must be Jewish (Deut. 17:15, Num. 24:17). This is obvious.
  2. He must descend from the Tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10) and a direct male descendant of both King David (1 Chron. 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jerm. 33:17, 2 Sam. 7:12-16) and King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:10, 2 Chron. 7:18).
  3. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12).
  4. He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (Micah 4:1).
  5. He must bring world peace (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3).
  6. He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zeph. 3:9).

All of these written requirements for the true “Moshiach” are best summed up in Ezekiel 37:24-28:

Therefore, according to Yeshua’s own scriptures, if the Jewish individual fails to fulfill even one of these requirements, he cannot be the “Moshiach.” Period, no exceptions. Being as well studied and versed in Mishnaic Hebrew scriptures of his people during fervent Messianism of the day as Yeshua certainly was… he would’ve known that he could not possibly be the fulfilled Moshiach or Messiah.

The 12-year old boy Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) at the Temple in Jerusalem astounding the priests, scribes, rabbis

Bart Ehrman does further clarify in his post, Why Should We Think Jesus Called Himself the Messiah? that:

But in my opinion Dr. Ehrman doesn’t go far enough with the distinctions between the authentic Jewish Moshiach and the later created (or hijacked?) Greco-Roman extrapolation of Messiah. Additionally, I don’t think Ehrman is giving Yeshua enough scriptural credit to know that he could NOT be the Greco-Roman version of Messiah/Christos. I am convinced that Yeshua knew he was not the Moshiach/Messiah. I also think that a critical question is overlooked in Ehrman’s portrayal of the Messiah/Christos: why did Yeshua not proclaim publicly, to his own people, he was the real Messiah. He only proclaimed it—at least according to the Gospels—to his twelve disciples. Why create more drama and controversy by keeping the anointed-elect a secret? That is a Pandora’s Box or can of worms that given how the Jewish people had been long suffering under Roman authority and oppression just did not need! Is that how you unite and “gather the Jewish people” into world peace? No, it is not, especially if G-d has ordained you as Moshiach.

Why Yeshua/Jesus Was Not the Jewish Moshiach-Messiah

Of the six (6) criteria above to fulfill the role and title of Moshiach-Messiah, Yeshua fulfilled only one, that he was Jewish. There are many problematic accounts of Yeshua’s (Jesus’) genealogy in fulfilling #2 above, i.e. from the Tribe of Judah, from King David and King Solomon. The immediate obvious problem, according to the canonical Gospels, is that Yeshua did not have a biological father. And if that wasn’t disqualifying enough, the Greco-Roman Gospels claim that Joseph was a descendant of King Jeconiah. In the Tanakh King Jeconiah was cursed to never have any descendants (Jer. 22:30). These Hebrew passages further disqualify Yeshua as the Moshiach-Messiah.

Closer examination of Yeshua’s (Jesus’) genealogy according to the Greco-Roman New Testament Gospels show that in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 cause more serious contradictory narratives about his genealogy. Here the later Greco-Roman Church Fathers jump through hoops to explain away these contradictions! Using Yeshua’s mother, Mary, as legitimate lineage is completely unfounded in Jewish Messianism. This is shown even in the Greek Septuagint. Jewish lineage for the Moshiach-Messiah is passed down strictly through the father, not through the mother. Furthermore, the same Gospels claim that Joseph was a descendant of King Jeconiah. This is more damaging to Yeshua’s lineage because of Jeremiah 22:30:

It is safe to assume that either 1) for this problem the Greco-Roman New Testament scribes and copyists chose to trace Yeshua’s genealogy through Mary his mother, breaking from long established Jewish Messianism, or 2) didn’t know about the passage in Jeremiah 22 until it was too late to change it. Then there is further problems tracing Yeshua’s lineage through Mary and that is Luke 3:23-38. For the sake of brevity I will focus just on verse 31:

Mary, being supposedly a descendant of David through Nathan, Solomon’s brother, and not through Solomon himself as mandatory by long established Jewish Messianism and 1 Chronicles 22:10, then this further disqualifies Yeshua (Jesus) as the Moshiach-Messiah. It simply isn’t possible. And we have only examined the first two Jewish Messianic requirements above! The remaining four criteria above have never been fulfilled—not in Yeshua’s lifetime nor since. Any retrofit imposed upon these six criteria by Greco-Roman Christians, including the earliest Church Fathers, by a “Second Coming” are purely irrelevant because authentic Jewish Moshiach-Messianism has no scriptural basis of the anointed one coming twice. This is merely a later invention by the Early Christian Church, that by the way, is completely Greco-Roman, not Homeland Messianic Judaism or Yeshua’s heritage at all.

Early Greco-Roman Christian Church Fathers — notice they appear with pale skin & nothing like Jewish Rabbis or Priests and none of them were even half Jewish

The later Christian inventions and fabrications of the Messiah in Yeshua differ so much from authentic Jewish Moshiach-Messianism that they are not even in the same orbit or solar system. The stark differences developed as a result of the Church’s Greco-Roman influences, or superimposing, during the time of Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. This council eventually drew up the Nicene Creed in 325 CE and forced one central authority and doctrinal orthodoxy, thus making Greco-Roman Catholicism the official religion of the Empire.

Be that as it may, according to authentic Jewish Messianism of the time (Yeshua’s lifetime and prior), the Moshiach (or Greek Messiah) was never meant to be an object of worship. The “anointed one’s” primary mission and final accomplishment was/is to bring global peace and to fulfill the entire world with the knowledge and awareness of only one G-d, and no others. Period. Full stop.

If Not the Jewish Messiah, Then Whose Messiah?

Imagine a hypothetical scenario for a moment. Imagine that you want to take advantage of the recent reparations offered by the U.S. government to the Native American Indian descendants due to America’s harsh atrocities done to them during the early and mid-19th century. The benefits, grants, and return of sacred lands to all the various tribes you have recognized as very advantageous and gaining an economic edge and eventual wealth accumulation. You want a part of it all, however, you also know full well that you possess no DNA of any Native American Indian ancestors, only white Anglo European-American. But you really envy desire all the reparations and benefits being handed out. Hmm, what to do… how to finagle?

Ah-HAH! 💡You rewrite and change history as well as the main and secondary characters to fit your best interests and your own agenda. While doing so you trash and/or eliminate the factual history and characters; wipe it out completely. Rome often did precisely that, simply destroy or distort the conquered and their culture so much that it is unrecognizable in the end.

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While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on the tree with an arrow shot precisely into the center of the circle. A few yards away he noticed several more targets marked on other trees, each with arrows perfectly in the center of the circles. Eventually, the traveler met the talented archer and asked him, “How did you become such an expert archer that you always shoot your arrows into the very center of the bull’s eye?

The archer replied, “It’s not difficult. First, I shoot the arrow into the tree and then I draw the circle around the arrow.

When one unbiasedly and equitably scrutinizes 2nd thru 4th-century CE Christian “proof texts” of Yeshua (Jesus) being their promised Messiah, you must ask the question: Has an arrow been shot into a circle or has a circle been drawn around the arrow? To put it another way, has the passage or passages been mistranslated, wrongly extrapolated, misquoted, taken out of context, or completely fabricated? Let’s take a close look at the several common proof texts Christian Apologists offer for their Yeshua-Jesus being the foretold Messiah.

Matthew 2:23 and Nazareth:
One of the easiest ways to fulfill a prophesy is one you yourself invented. The Gospel of Matthew claims that Yeshua was the Messiah because he lived in the town of Nazareth:

Because a Nazarene might be interpreted as a resident of Nazareth, vaguely he could be called a Nazarene. However, there is a huge problem with an actual town called Nazareth in the time period of the Jewish Tanakh; it did not exist. Hence, there are no references to Nazareth in the Hebrew Bible. Nowhere. This was later fabricated by early Church Fathers drawing a circle, as it were, around the arrow. What modern Christian apologists will offer is to work with crude English retranslations of earlier Greek mistranslations while avoiding the original, authentic Hebrew scriptures.

Romans 11:26 and Isaiah 59:20:
The passage in Isaiah in several English translations states, “The deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob…” This is an attempt to establish Old Testament support for the Christian belief that their Messiah will take away our sins. But this is not what the original Hebrew Isaiah says. The correct translation from the Hebrew is “A redeemer will come to Zion and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob, declares the Lord.” No, in authentic Jewish Messianism the Moshiach-Messiah’s role is not to take away all our sins, but instead when we choose to turn away from our sins, the Moshiach-Messiah will then arrive on Earth. Christian apologists translate Isaiah 59:20 correctly, but mistranslate it in Romans 11:26. Why? The obvious reason is that Romans was written/copied in c. 55-57 CE by Saul/Paul. Isaiah was written/copied c. last half of the 8th-century BCE to the last half of the 6th-century BCE. A massive time-lapse there of later answering and rebutting many critics of early Christianity authenticity! Or as it were, drawing the circles around the arrows.

Matthew 1:22-23 and a Virgin Birth:
In the Gospel of Matthew is states, “Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” Christian apologists claim this fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 which says in the correct, original Hebrew: “Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son and she will call his name Emmanuel.

The current Christian translation of this Isaiah verse is simply inaccurate for three reasons:

  1. The Hebrew word, “almah -אלמה,” means a young woman, not a virgin. All Jewish biblical scholars recognize this fact.*1
  2. The verse says “ha’ almah -הא עלמה” or “the young woman,” not a young woman, specifying a particular woman that was known to Isaiah during his lifetime; and
  3. The verse says “she will call his name Emmanuel,” not “they shall call.

Aside from these three inaccuracies above, if you read the entire chapter of Isaiah 7, from which this verse is taken, it is glaringly obvious that Christians have intentionally taken the verse out of context.

Prophecies or passages in the Hebrew Tanakh or Old Testament

Isaiah 7:16 and 8:4:
Isaiah 7 speaks of a prophecy made to the Jewish King Ahaz to lessen his fears of two invading kings—those of Damascus and Samaria—both of whom were preparing to invade Jerusalem some 600 years before the birth of Yeshua (Jesus). Isaiah’s prophecy is meant for the very near future, not 600 years later as Christians wrongly claim. Verse 16 makes this quite clear:

This can in fact be verified in the next chapter, Isaiah 8:4:

Thus, this verse completely rules out any possible connection to Yeshua (Jesus) six millennia later. The verse doesn’t even hint in the least it is meant for six millennia later. There is further proof in fact that the verse could not have referred to Yeshua.

2 Samuel 7:14 and Hebrews 1:5:
Christian apologists often refer to 2 Samuel 7:14 to refer to Yeshua as the Son of God in Hebrews 1:5. But when the entire passage is examined it doesn’t end with the phrase of Hebrews 1:5, it goes on to say:

In 3rd and 4th-century CE Christian theology of Yeshua’s sinless birth and boyhood, this cannot possibly fit the doctrine of a pure, holy Son of God and Lamb of God. No, instead the verse is speaking specifically about King Solomon, as 1 Chronicles 22:9-10 refers. It must be remembered too that the Hebrew Tanakh frequently refers to individuals as God’s “son,” even to the entire nation of Israel:

Once again, drawing the circle around the arrow to appear as it’s not.

Micah 5:2 and Bethlehem:
Christian evangelicals and apologists frequently attempt to use Micah 5:2 as a proof-text of Yeshua fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. However, in the original Hebrew the passage simply states it has been preordained that the Jewish Messiah would trace his lineage back to Bethlehem. Being born there and being a resident there are not exclusively the same. This verse in Micah is consistent with the Messiah being a descendant of King David as properly read in 1 Samuel 16:18:

That does not possibly mean the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.

Furthermore, there is another major problem with this Christian proof-text. There is a huge difference between a scripture passage that serves as a proof, and one that serves as a requirement of the Messiah. A proof must be something so specific, so exclusive that only one individual can represent it or fulfill it. For example, one criterion of the Jewish Moshiach-Messiah is that he must be Jewish. If he is Jewish, like so many were at the time, then that is one and ONLY one requirement met. But in and of itself that doesn’t mean that one individual is the Moshiach-Messiah, for there were millions of Jews that met that criterion. Thousands of Jewish children were born in Bethlehem. That doesn’t prove a Messiah.

Conclusion: Not the Jewish Or the Christian Messiah

Because I have shown sufficiently that Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) could not have possibly been the foretold Jewish Moshiach-Messiah according to the original, authentic Hebrew Tanakh and Late Second Temple Judaism, then where does that leave Greco-Roman Christianity and all its tenets, inventions, and fabrications? The simple answer is Christianity is only as valid, or as factual as Greco-Roman mythology in Zeus and Quirinus, Mars and Venus, Jupiter and Juno, or Apollo and Diana. Nothing more. Why? I’ll briefly summarize.

  1. Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) was not the fulfilled or foretold Jewish Messiah according to authentic Judaism.
  2. Christianity lays claim to (or hijacks) Jewish Moshiach-Messianism, as their own. However, does so completely wrong based on authentic Judaism of the time and later invents their own Roman version.
  3. If #1 is true (and it is), then #2 cannot be right or factually, accomplished or validated.
  4. Therefore, Christianity’s basic core foundations of the fulfilled Messiah are invalid, bogus, and become Greco-Roman mythology at best.

Regarding Dr. Bart Ehrman’s blog-post Why Should We Think Jesus Called Himself the Messiah?, knowing well the Jewish history of the Late Second Temple Period, the Hebrew Tanakh in proper translation, and the contemporaneous Jewish literature of Yeshua’s time-frame, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, I’m convinced that Yeshua (Jesus) never admitted he was the hoped Jewish Messiah, not within Jewish sources—the Greco-Roman Gospels as only one source are nowhere near sufficient corroboration to Ehrman’s conclusion.

Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) is not the Jewish or the Christian Messiah. Period. He is no one’s Messiah.

  1. * Some Christian apologists argue that in an ancient translation of the Bible called the “Septuagint,” 70 great rabbis translated the word “almah -אלמה” in Isaiah 7:14, as “parthenos –παρθενος ´ ,” and that this Greek word means a virgin. This claim is false for several reasons: 1) The 70 rabbis did not translate the book of Isaiah, only the “Pentateuch,” the five books of Moses. In fact, the introduction to the English edition of the Septuagint states concerning the translation, “The Pentateuch is considered to be the part, the best executed, while the book of Isaiah appears to be the very worst;2) In Genesis 34:2-3 the word “parthenos” is used in reference to a non-virgin, a young woman who had been raped; 3) The entire Septuagint version that missionaries quote from is not the original, but from a later, corrupted version. ↩︎

The Professor’s Convatorium © 2023 by Professor Taboo is licensed under CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 

43 thoughts on “Jewish or Christian Messiah?

    • And yet an elementary-or-better understanding of it is SO INCREDIBLY important! 😉 A Christian will never fully understand their “Christos,” their supposed “Messiah” if they have no clue of his heritage, education, and background. 😁

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          • Unfortunately, many if not most Christians do not know enough about their faith which begs the question, “Why do you put so much ‘faith’ into a religion you seem to know so little about?” I ask this question regularly and you can just imagine the responses I get.

            Liked by 2 people

            • Oh RaPaR, I can indeed imagine the responses you get—everything under the sun & moon, and so many are utterly ridiculous excuses. I get them all the time as well. It is sometimes beyond baffling.

              Most of the time I am just forced to chalk it up as “super, super LAZY” on their part. Just obese and blissful, willful ignorance—which in clinical psychology is a diagnosis of Delusional Personality Disorder. 🤷‍♂️

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  1. So much to comment upon . . .

    Re “Jesus was considered the messiah by his followers after his death, so much so that “Christ” became the most common designation for him.”

    Christ just means “anointed one” and a great many Hebrews were anointed. All of their kings, their high priests, and even some prophets. Being anointed has nothing to do with being the messiah.

    If you look at the list of requirements for being a messiah (there was not just to be one), Jesus was clearly not one, but then, why is it important for Christians to see Jesus appointed a messiah, only to be considered a failure? Being a messiah doesn’t affect the Christian message one bit.

    There is more but I will restrain myself.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wasn’t it PAUL who assigned the title of “Christ” to Jesus? As for Jesus being the messiah. it has been demonstrated by many what he does/did not fit the qualifications.

      Of course, none of this matters to today’s believers.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Paul was the prime advertiser, as to being the creator, the term existed prior to Paul. Some claim that Paul was the creator of Jesus the Christ. In the book The Jesus Hoax, the author makes a good case for Paul creating Christianity out of whole cloth, using an obscure rabbi who supported rebels and got executed as his foil. Paul’s motive was to undermine the Roman occupation and keep Judah Jewish. Of all the speculations regarding the creation of Christianity, this is the one which has the best motive for the creators (the Romans created it as a way to diffuse the Jewish rebellions is the second best motive).

        Liked by 1 person

    • You make a valid point about factual history and truth regarding modern Christians, Steve. Your point reminds me of Jerry Jones’ ownership of the NFL franchise Dallas Cowboys…

      Jones will always claim the glory of those Super Bowl Championships of 1992, 1993, and 1995 as mostly his doing. But the fact is he inherited EVERYTHING outstanding from Tom Landry, Tex Schramm, and Jimmy Johnson who built that winning dynasty, especially with the Hershel Walker trade. BUT… BUT… Jerry Jones in fact had almost nothing to do with those years of great success. And yet, uninformed Cowboys fans will wrongly remember Jerry Jones as the catalyst of those glory years. Hence…

      Being a Cowboys’ messiah-owner doesn’t affect the (Jerry Jones) Christian [propaganda] one bit.

      And every season Jones sells out AT&T Stadium for every game there the Cowboys play. The stupid leading the stupid every year, as the idiom goes. 😉

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  2. And two millennia later people are still fighting this fight. Yet, Christianity ignores it, because they believe what they have been told to believe. They have this feeling called faith. Faith cannot be threatened or questioned, because when it is, the whole thing falls apart, and everyone is left holding a deflated balloon. And there is not even hot air left to appease the crowd. So they return to faith, or they open their minds to find real freedom…

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      • Great job, Prof, giving your take on the fraudulent messiahship. You dig deep. And it was a long, long time ago. I am a bit frustrated at academia’s continuing quest for an historical Jesus. Most of us have decided who he was, and live accordingly. Then again, maybe something new will evolve.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Though we’ve had this conversation before about your “Lord’s” nature OUTSIDE of historical sources/literature, etc., i.e. a spirit/individual paranormal relationship… I’ve also pointed out to you that THAT conclusion is ultimately random and completely dependent on each individual person’s own experience of supernatural or paranormal stuff. There is no standard or orthodoxy to that method. Every believer is right and every believer is wrong; it’s insanely relative.

          But I know you remember this. 🙂

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      • Not a lot, yet enough to navigate life, I think. Intro to Psychology, Early Childhood Development, and the last science course I took was The Human Brain (while going through a family breakup). I think I got a low C, high D. Not fun.
        From then on, life itself, with the experiences and relationships etc were much more interesting, and worthy of investing in. I’m a far cry from who I was, even only 5 years ago. More than from classroom facts, people learn from people. Street smarts.

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        • Hmm… 🤔

          Well, thank you for your honesty.

          Many (most?) Christians would not have answered that so honestly and instead would’ve greatly exaggerated, embellished their background and/or work in science when in fact they have only (maybe?) an elementary level in it… at best.

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          • Thanks Professor T.
            I think your opinion of Christians may be skewed due to evangelical chauvinists that insist their way is right, and the bible is God. None of us know for certain whether or not there’s a man behind the curtain.

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            • I certainly do reside amongst MANY arrogant evangelical Christians you speak of, it is impossible to avoid them here. I recognize that and it is prevalent throughout the Deep South and Midwest of the U.S. It’s like a cancer if you ask me.

              However Arnold, you only have what the Greco-Roman bible has taught you and those people who have greatly influenced you in YOUR own belief system. You did not live during the Late Second Temple Period in Jerusalem so how do you know anything about your god, your Christos, your specific theology… except thru “history” as it has been passed down for over two millennia?

              Whether you like it or not, YOUR own personal relationship with God, with Christos, is very much influenced by this exact history I address… the Greek canonical bible. Where else could it possibly originate? 🤷‍♂️

              You can try your best to detach from it Arnold, but you can never escape it. You must accept that. You have subscribed to a very flawed theology and belief system. Period. 🙂

              Perhaps you will realize that in the future. I hope so.

              Liked by 1 person

            • Contrariwise, I have unsubscribed from flawed theology and beliefs, and forge on with the Person. I know the Bible as capricious literature is inescapable and so appeal to the spirit of God.

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            • The thing is, Arnold (and I think I’ve pointed this out before), your entire belief system originated in the bible. So your efforts to “disregard” some parts of it and not others is dishonest on your part.

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            • To me the Bible’s goal is God himself. So wide open for interpreting and developing relationship with him. And remember, it’s written and edited with an extremely diverse and opinionated bunch of guys.

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  3. I think it behoves believers not to investigate the truth. It makes faith so much easier and you don’t have to care about all those pesky details! They don’t know what they’d need to know to refute the claims made by atheists which leaves them befuddled, to say the least. I’ve seen people panic at the notion that their mythology may not be “real” or even what they’ve expected it to be; too many unanswered questions, too many contradictions they can’t explain, etc.

    For many it is simply a moral imperative that they believe, they cannot conceive of life without the man upstairs so they just do.

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    • Excellent observation John, on American “ISIS” evangelicals-fundamentalists that is. That’s probably also true with others around the world.

      Thank you for the compliment on my Scriptural knowledge and experience Sir. 🙏 I have spent many MANY long years in my studies of not just the Greco-Roman canonical Bible (in seminary)—and all its sub-affiliate translations—and non-canonical testimonies and letters, but much more critically the Hebrew Tanakh, most all Jewish Rabbinical literature of the Zugot (pre-Jesus), Tannaim (during Jesus), and early Amoriam Periods (just after Jesus), the Dead Sea Scrolls, and finally, as much as I could get my hands on, lessons in the ancient Mishnaic Hebrew, the language Yeshua/Jesus spoke.

      I mean, it seems quite reasonable to me to do this; after all, the EASY question that should always be asked by Christ-followers is… Was Jesus a Jew? 🤷‍♂️ Duh, right? I mean, from his birth, his parents, his youth, to his early 30’s, this was precisely WHO Yeshua/Jesus was… nothing more, nothing less!

      But astonishingly, as several of you here rightly point out, 90%–98% of Greek Christians today don’t care about these hard facts, the actual verifiable truth! They’d rather believe in a fairy-tale that makes them feel warm & fuzzy inside. To me, that is no more valid than believing in Sasquatch, Santa Claus, or Peter Pan. HAH! 😄

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  4. Professor: Have enjoyed your writings at Nan’s “place” and I think you comment at Maka’s as well, but I have never clicked the link to YOUR own site!

    This was fascinating. Given how…obvious…it seems, I am curious about points of rebuttal? Dr. Ehrman is a busy man, but I would love to see his take?

    There have to be points of rebuttal? There is a whole millennia old INDUSTRY of apologetics…by “smart” people? Schools and armies of intellectuals and entire universities. Is the orthodoxy strong that they just ignore basic reason and reading of the texts? The original language is available so it seems amazing to me.

    The other thing that strikes me is how your detailed analysis eliminates the universality of Yahweh’s religion. This strikes me as very much the story of a TRIBAL god’s promises to his chosen people? Christianity has universalized this theology well beyond the original idea and intent.

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    • Hello basenjibrian2, thank you for the feedback and questions. Apologies for my late response. I’ve been very ill of late, but finally back to 90% to catch-up with neglected tasks. 🙄

      Dr. Ehrman has a blog-site that I am a member of and he and his interns under him do indeed respond to members’/followers’ comments and questions. Here’s a link to Ehrman’s blog if you are interested:

      The Bart Ehrman Blog

      I believe being a member costs only about $3.00/mon and the interns and Dr. Ehrman are good about responding to comments and questions on a huge plethora of topics.

      Your final two paragraphs are on the money, IMO. And to your last sentence, you’ve summed it up very well:

      Christianity has universalized this theology well beyond the original idea and intent.

      Indeed! And yet no modern Christians are asking so many critical scriptural/manuscripts questions from or about non-Christian sources of Jesus’ (Yeshua’s) familial background, education, and likely teachings… all of which were based HEAVILY in Mishnaic Hebrew, Hebraisms, and idioms of that time period. Today Christians confine themselves strictly to Greek or Hellenistic sources such as the four Gospels and Saul’s/Paul’s teachings and perhaps letters/writings of the 1st and 2nd generation Apostolic Church Fathers—who by the way were not Jewish or Hebrew. Their self-confinement completely ignores Yeshua’s Jewish Torah-loving ascetic life and ministry and doing so is radical tunnel-vision.

      It also needs to be said that Yeshua NEVER intended to start a new religious movement that abandons Judaism! Saul/Paul is the founder of Christianity, not Yeshua/Jesus.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Just some points for those who might want to reflect further…

    1 – There is plenty of truth to be found within Greek myth, provided one learns to approach the topics with the right kind of mythological thinking and not with mere rhetoric or logical analysis. Therefore, it should not be demeaned as it has been here. One could easily apply the same sort of derision to Jewish lore.

    2 – I’ve watched over 30 of Dr. Bart’s video chats and my impression of him is that he lacks imagination and can only operate in a ‘scholarly’ manner, and therefore will never comprehend any spiritual literature which is authentic.

    3 – One must distinguish between Jesus and Christ when contemplating the Gospels, etc. This holds for athiests, rationalists, mythologists, Christians who self-label, Christians who do not self-label, Jews, spiritual seekers, and astrophysicists. Jesus was the Hebrew human of which fairly little is related in the Gospels between ages 12 and 30 (nothing at all in fact in either Mark or John) who was the fulfilment of the Old Testament ark of the covenant with the people of Israel. The aim of this covenant, from a higher view, was to prepare a vehicle, millenia hence, suitable for Christ to incanrnate into for 3 years as a matter of cosmic intervention, via the sacrifice of a God, into earthly affairs. Christ, as indicated in the opening lines of John, is the original Word, a divine being who preceded Creation just as the Father god. Christ incarnated into Jesus at the baptism event, signified by the descending dove and the voice of the Father god. This was a supernatural event. Observing it would have required supernatural clairvoyance and clairaudience on the part of any nearby humans. Hence Jesus the man bore these qualities for he did perceive it as did the Baptist. All miracles and parables delivered during the gospels were deeds of Christ, not deeds of Jesus.

    4 – I think you are more or less correct, though perhaps not all of your logical analyses are, in deducing that Jesus was not the Messiah in the understood Hebraic sense, nor was Christ. Christ was the Christ, the Word. The kingdoms referenced by Christ have nothing to do with Israel or present day Gaza which present day Israel is defecating upon. The kingdom is supernatural in quality and if your thinking is not prepared to entertain the possibility, at least, of a more than material reality then you can never grasp what the Bible is about, despite its numerous mistranslation and historic issues. The 3 year period of Christ on earth had one of its missions as opening up pathways for subsequent humanity to have access to supernatural reality.

    5 – Church orthodoxy destroyed and subverted the original comprehension of Christ by somewhere mid-4th century AD. In the first century, Christ’s disciples had the ability to perceive supernaturally. At least the most advanced of them. The writing of the gospels, regardless of later translation issues, were composed via states of clairvoyant spiritual perception in contemplation of the event at Golgotha. They were NOT composed via standard research of any kind or transmission of word of mouth accounts. This one fact places figures like Ehrman so far out of the loop concerning the reality of spiritual documents that it can hardly be said he is speaking of the same topic. Who can entertain this idea? Very few. Yet it is necessary to come closer to the truth.

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  6. Hi, and you are welcome. I had already read the first two of your proposed readings before commenting but not the 3rd. Regarding the 2nd, I should make it clear to you, in case you are unsure, that I am not a “Faith-Religious believer”.

    I would offer you in turn three recommended posts to read from my website:

    https://skirmisheswithreality.net/2023/03/27/clairvoyance-in-marks-gospel/

    https://skirmisheswithreality.net/2022/10/09/nagel-doubts-the-uber-narrative/

    https://skirmisheswithreality.net/2022/07/24/believing-disbelieving-and-knowing/

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